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Apple Wins Patent Ruling As Jury Finds Samsung Infringes

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Re: Apple Wins Patent Ruling As Jury Finds Samsung Infringes

#311

Post by dredmorbius »

pantaloons wrote: post #307
dredmorbius wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microsoft (against IBM, DEC, Novell, SCO (the original, Microsoft's own spawn). Sun, against IBM and AT&T. Red Hat, against Sun. Salesforce against bespoke business solutions. Google Apps against Microsoft Office. Gmail against MS Exchange. More generally, read/refer to Clayton Christensen's Innovator's Dilemma .

What makes you include GMail in that list? It has, by all measures, failed to move up the value chain, its revenue is completely eclipsed by that of Exchange. (Disclaimer: I work at MS.)

My question in response would be: what accounts has Microsoft lost to Gmail in the past couple of years?

From my connections, I'm aware that much of the startup world is on some mix of Gmail for Domains, Google Apps, and/or Mac for desktops/laptops. Microsoft really doesn't play.

Granted, those are small accounts, but I've also seen some household name established businesses ditch Exchange for Gmail. And in a world for which changing enterprise platforms almost universally elicits dread, the announcements were met with cheers. Really loud cheers.

And to answer in part: again, read Christensen. It's not that the cheap competition generates more revenue (though in some cases it does). By that metric you're making the same strategic error as recoiledsnake. It's that by growing marketshare, disruptive innovations suck the revnue out of the market.

It's what Red Hat did to Sun. It's what Craigslist did to classified advertising.

It's what Gmail's doing to Exchange.

Re: Apple Wins Patent Ruling As Jury Finds Samsung Infringes

#312

Post by regularfry »

prodigal_erik wrote: post #305
rayiner wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A claim is not a series of tubes... Seriously, though, people on HN, etc, read claims far more broadly than a court would. They tend to see "rubber band effect" and think Apple patented all rubber band effects. Claims start out broadly, and are narrowed by additional elements of the claim. "A rubber band effect THAT: a)... b)... c)..." You can't just ignore (a), (b), (c) because they narrow the boundaries of the clai…

I just want to remind everyone in tech in the US that reading patents in your field is a very bad idea. The system is so dysfunctional that you may be infringing a lot (which should never have been granted, but you can't afford to fight) but becoming aware of them makes it "wilful" and can triple the damages from a suit. This doctrine is why Samsung's penalty is so high.

My reading is that the $1bn figure excludes any multiples for wilfulness.

Re: Apple Wins Patent Ruling As Jury Finds Samsung Infringes

#313

Post by pooriaazimi »

chairsofter wrote: post #271
pooriaazimi wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the market has punished [Apple] for it You're serious? They take 73% of the profit in smartphone market, with Samsung at the second place (26%) and HTC, third (1%), their stock is booming, they have more money in the bank than all of their competitors combined (they can buy Samsung, HTC and Dell and shut them down and still have a few billion dollars left). I'd call that reward, not punishment. http://www.asymco.co…

This is what I don't get: people applaud Apple for their massive profit margins when in reality it just shows how they're screwing the consumer. Does nobody care about the betterment of the general public -us!?- around here? By buying products with huge profit margins you're spending money on features that you're not getting. And THAT is why I refuse to buy Apple products.

Well, I enjoy using my Apple gears tremendously and they enable to do a lot of things that I wouldn't be able to do otherwise. I'd rather pay a $400 premium on a MacBook and have peace of mind for two years. People pay 100 times more for cars and housing.

Obviously I'm not implying that you or others don't care about 'peace of mind' and are cheap bastards who never pay for anything :) - it just happens that you don't find a MacBook or iPad or iPhone as valuable for you and your lifestyle as I do, and purchase what suits you best.

Re: Apple Wins Patent Ruling As Jury Finds Samsung Infringes

#314

Post by zizee »

tptacek wrote: post #236
recoiledsnake wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They take 73% of the profit in smartphone market I chuckle every time I hear this. How much profit of the web server market does Microsoft take with IIS vs. the free alternatives like Apache and Nginx? Who wins in the Server OS market of Windows Server vs. Linux/BSD? Who dominates the web dev tools market of Visual Studio vs. Eclipse/etc. ? The same arguments you make can be made against the above too. The idea of p…

Since when did profit become the one and true metric? This is like wondering whether you'd be better off running a grocery store rather than a software business. Profit is the only metric. The idea that this notion started with Apple is strange.

Profit is the only metric.

Profit is not the only metric. Market share is a valid metric to compare products (as long as you have a sustainable position).

If android was selling five times as many units as apple, but with only 15% the margin, then apple would still be the most profitable, but would be losing the mindshare war.

Eventually devs would be concentrating their efforts on android first, and perhaps only for android. In the long term, marketshare is the more important metric.

Re: Apple Wins Patent Ruling As Jury Finds Samsung Infringes

#315

Post by pkamb »

chairsofter wrote: post #271
pooriaazimi wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the market has punished [Apple] for it You're serious? They take 73% of the profit in smartphone market, with Samsung at the second place (26%) and HTC, third (1%), their stock is booming, they have more money in the bank than all of their competitors combined (they can buy Samsung, HTC and Dell and shut them down and still have a few billion dollars left). I'd call that reward, not punishment. http://www.asymco.co…

This is what I don't get: people applaud Apple for their massive profit margins when in reality it just shows how they're screwing the consumer. Does nobody care about the betterment of the general public -us!?- around here? By buying products with huge profit margins you're spending money on features that you're not getting. And THAT is why I refuse to buy Apple products.

How many owners of iPhones and iPads feel "screwed"?

Re: Apple Wins Patent Ruling As Jury Finds Samsung Infringes

#316

Post by orangecat »

sahaj wrote: post #285
nikcub wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is correct. The case is much more nuanced than suggested. This case was Samsung and Google by proxy vs Apple

The case was only against the Nexus S 4G - the Sprint version - which hasn't been updated to Android 4.1. The AT&T version was not part of the case. Android 4.1 removed infringing features.

I hope that's true, do you have a source? It would be a nice silver lining if this ruling resulted in manufacturers sticking closer to stock Android and moving to the latest versions more quickly.

Re: Apple Wins Patent Ruling As Jury Finds Samsung Infringes

#317

Post by pinaceae »

programminggeek wrote: post #10

This is both unsurprising and somewhat meaningless as there will be an appeals process that will last for months and possibly years. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to see that Samsung made their products to look like Apple products. They changed their icon styles and other UI elements away from Android standards to match the Apple style. Some of the things Apple invented and patented on like pinch to zoom an…

On a greater scale this is the clash of 'Western', as in US/Europe, and East-Asian mindsets and culture. If you look into other areas like pharma, the same battles are being fought, with India and China essentially ignoring 'our' patent laws for their domestic markets (see their recent changes in laws).

China has forced manufacturers to build factories in China in order to be able to sell products there, regardless of industry. Siemens managed to build one Maglev train in Shanghai - all the others are being build the Chinese themselves, now that they have the tech. Airbus? Same thing, China is jumpstarting their aircraft business.

Big picture is that this KILLS true Western style innovation as there is no reward for being first. If you're a founder you should be scared of the copy machines in East-Asia. For now they only focus on their own markets, but once big enough they will come after you.

Look at what 800App is doing with salesforce.com - they copy the shit out of it, pixel by pixel, essentially destroying the Chinese market for SFDC. SFDC chose an interesting tactic, they invested in 800App: http://salesforcerumors.com/2011/09/25/salesforce-com-invest...

Google can't come after Baidu. Facebook couldn't do much against vKontakte, their Russian 1:1 clone (the chuzpe is breathtaking).

Re: Apple Wins Patent Ruling As Jury Finds Samsung Infringes

#319

Post by MordinSolus »

veidr wrote: post #223
ojiikun wrote: post #132

You know those 45% of HN readers that use a Mac? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4422121 Time to start voting with your $$ against AAPL. They are part of the problem, not part of the innovation.

I try to do this, just because I viscerally dislike Apple specifically and the increasing hegemony of corporations over individuals in general, but it is really hard to stick with because Apple simply makes the best fucking products. I bought a Galaxy Nexus, and it's a lot better than previous Android phones, but it just sucks too much to rely on so I carry two phones. I bought a Nexus 7, which I actually like more t…

Essentially, the problem is with the government, not Apple. I don't dislike Apple for what they are doing; they are doing what any self-interested company would do.

Re: Apple Wins Patent Ruling As Jury Finds Samsung Infringes

#320

Post by sigkill »

mladenkovacevic wrote: post #114
sriramk wrote: post #74

The big winner, apart from Apple, is Microsoft. If you're a hardware manufacturer, your choices are 1. You go with Android and have both Apple and Microsoft come after you. 2. You go with Windows Phone. I suspect the Windows Phone team is breaking open some champagne now.

The big loser here though might be America. Mobile hardware companies like ZTE or Huawei who are probably growing at the fastest pace right now are just going to deem the American market too risky to be made a priority and focus on Asian & European markets.

This exact point is something no one here on HN has realized. I'm living outside the US and this patent war means nothing to me (as of now). And when I was there, I was surprised to talk to my relatives and find out that before the iPhone all they had were crappy dumbphones. No Nokia S60 phones, no SonyEricsson P series UIQ phones, no nothing.

After this, I think many Android handset manufacturers might feel that the US market is too risky to enter. As it is, their mindset regarding a cellular phone is completely different as compared to others. They treat it as a service (which is why subsidized plans with criminal monthly rates exist) instead of decoupling the device from the subscription plans. Although in their defense it doesn't help that each of the carrier rolls with their own tech making cross-compatibility virtually impossible.

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