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SMS 2FA is not just insecure, it's also hostile to mountain people

blog.stillgreenmoss.net

311–320 of 328 posts

Re: SMS 2FA is not just insecure, it's also hostile to mountain people

#311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I absolutely cannot stand that no bank I have (US) supports generic TOTP, which is more secure and easier to recover from backup if my phone is broken or stolen. It's inexcusable.

TOTP is only marginally more secure. It defends against sim swaps but it still loses to phishing, which is far more common than sim swaps.

But it is easier to backup and restore, is accessible without a phone, and can be used without cell service.

Re: SMS 2FA is not just insecure, it's also hostile to mountain people

#312
post #277
post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For banks an other cases that (1) need to know you true identity, and (2) provide no expectation of privacy regarding sharing the existence of accounts with the government, a government run authentication would be fine from a privacy point of view. The issue is that every site has moved to using 2FA, and most of them have no legitimate need to know your true identity. So using a government ID based solution would unn…

Can you offer an example of a situation when the second factor authentifies without identification? Assume a service S wants a confirmation that user U is indeed legitimate. The centralized auth service A could receive from S a bunch of data S knows about U, like name, address, phone, SSN, whatever S needs to know about U. Then A should respond whether the fields match the data which A knows about U, without revealin…

Any TOTP where the user enrolls it on account creation, without going through a third-party service. Or SMS on a burner phone. Both are pseudonymous, since using the same authentication at multiple sites could be linked, but neither have to be tied to a real-world identity.

Re: SMS 2FA is not just insecure, it's also hostile to mountain people

#314
post #197

She just needs a microcell/femtocell. Talk to your provider, explain to them you get poor service at your home or place of work, and they'll send you a free Internet-in cellular-out radio AP. She doesn't need a tower-based booster if she's got fiber/cable/DSL, those only serve to amplify weak signals and she's too many miles and too many mountain ridges away from the nearest tower, she wants something with RJ-45 inpu…

> She just needs a microcell/femtocell. Those come with their own set of problems. In particular, they have to be able to receive a GPS signal, which is often not possible in mountainous terrain. I had a microcell for years and it was nightmarishly unreliable. Not only would it regularly (but randomly) just stop working, it would give absolutely no indication of why it was not working.

Maybe https://av.tib.eu/media/36387 or https://www.eevblog.com/forum/rf-microwave/sdr-as-gps-emulat... is a possibility.

Re: SMS 2FA is not just insecure, it's also hostile to mountain people

#315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TOTP is only marginally more secure. It defends against sim swaps but it still loses to phishing, which is far more common than sim swaps.

But it is easier to backup and restore, is accessible without a phone, and can be used without cell service.

Those are usability benefits rather than security benefits and I really don't know if I'd use the word "inexcusable" for this difference.

And for the vast majority of people, sms is much easier to backup and restore than totp because there is an infrastructure to help them do so.

Re: SMS 2FA is not just insecure, it's also hostile to mountain people

#316
> and TOTP, the obvious alternative solution, is still pretty sorry. you have to download an app to do it, it's not just a capability that a phone has by default

iOS Passwords can serve as your TOTP authenticator app.

https://support.apple.com/guide/iphone/automatically-fill-in...

Re: SMS 2FA is not just insecure, it's also hostile to mountain people

#317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> SMS is the only 2FA method that can be easily deployed at scale No, no, no, no, NO. No it's not. And you have zero proof of this. Its done this way because its the lowest effort to give security theater.

What's the actual method that can be easily deployed at scale then?

Email + SMS + generic time-based OTP seems quite enough for imho

Re: SMS 2FA is not just insecure, it's also hostile to mountain people

#318

Something somewhere is always hostile to particular group. That's just facts of life. You do your best to minimize but can never eliminate it. As someone who has dealt with 2FA support, all the methods suck. SMS 2FA is least secure but has broadest support with quickest recovery method. TOTP Applications (Google Auth, Authy, iOS Passwords) is more secure but people switch phones, lose phones and so forth and recovery…

Any system in which the government can re-establish account access on my behalf is a system in which the government can access my account without my knowledge. No thank you. If you mean the government just replaces hardware and re-establishing access is up to me, that’s no different from Yubikey.

In most cases, they can just subpoena the system and get all your data that way. Probably get a judge to sign off on subpoena coming with hush clause.

Re: SMS 2FA is not just insecure, it's also hostile to mountain people

#319

Something somewhere is always hostile to particular group. That's just facts of life. You do your best to minimize but can never eliminate it. As someone who has dealt with 2FA support, all the methods suck. SMS 2FA is least secure but has broadest support with quickest recovery method. TOTP Applications (Google Auth, Authy, iOS Passwords) is more secure but people switch phones, lose phones and so forth and recovery…

> Yubikey and like have cost problem and you still have recovery problem. Recovery is relatively straightforward if you have more than one key. You enroll all your keys, and if you lose one, you buy a new key and use one of the other keys to enroll it.

Yea, users never do that.

Re: SMS 2FA is not just insecure, it's also hostile to mountain people

#320
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I absolutely cannot stand that no bank I have (US) supports generic TOTP, which is more secure and easier to recover from backup if my phone is broken or stolen. It's inexcusable.

This is probably compliance-related. For me, TOTP isn’t “something I have”, it’s another thing I toss into my password manager and sync to all devices. I really agree with it, but that’s probably their rationale.

There are hardware TOTP tokens that don't allow export of the secret, that makes them something you have. For example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digipass

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