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Why I now, unfortunately, hate Hacker News..

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Re: Why I now, unfortunately, hate Hacker News..

#311
Dear Steve:

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4398353

Hello.

I read your post today.

Thank you for being so honest. I agree, HN can be a lot less supportive and honest these days. When you share something you've created, the feedback can be brutal. Things have changed, you're right about that. The causes have been well-documented, whether in Paul Graham’s comment, Giles Bowkett’s rant, or Joel Spolsky’s observations on building online communities with software.

I can’t tell Hacker News what to do about its growth. I’m not an expert by any means. And I can’t really heal the hurt you must feel when you pour your heart and soul into creating something only to have people you care about say “meh,” or worse. I’ve been there, and although I put a brave face on it, I hurt when people criticize things I take personally.

It’s all very well and good to say, “Don’t take it personally.” I don’t take it personally when a client doesn’t like a feature I suggest for them. It’s a business, I’m trying things for them, it isn’t personal. But when I write essays or stories or share a little library of code, I am doing something very personal, and truth be told I crave some positive feedback, some signal that people are glad I tried even if it isn’t for them.

What I wouldn’t give for a few more “Hey, great effort, it would have been even better if you’d considered adding Foo” comments and a lot fewer “What good is it without Foo?” questions.

So here I am sharing something about me, and this is very personal. I hope I am resonating with you, because if it helps you in any way, I can live with 1,000,000 downvotes from grumpy people. And for me, that is one of the keys to being happy in a public forum. Seize on any bit of progress, no matter how small. If you like this letter, I can focus on that, I made you nod, or smile, or maybe feel a little better for a little while. That isn’t a billion dollars from a startup, but it is damn satisfying to find out that someone, somewhere is a little bit happier for a time, and to think you helped.

And maybe you can find that from the things you are trying. Is there one person out there who is a little happier, who learned a little something, who is grateful for your work? That matters, and it matters more than ten or a hundred or a thousand nay-sayers. I can tell you flat out, I am grateful you wrote your message to Hacker News. It struck something in me. It is striking something in other people. It is making people think. It is making the world a teeny bit better. That’s something positive you did, some important measure of your worth. Thank you.

Maybe Hacker News will find a way back to where it came from. I don’t know. But I can tell you, I decided a while back that I want to try to stick around even if it doesn’t. I don’t want to “bail” to the next little place the way I bailed from Reddit to HN. Time changes, and we must change with it. Unless it becomes actively poisonous, I want to try to grow and learn to be happy in spite of how it is not the way it was. There are still many wonderful things happening there, many wonderful people posting there, many excellent posts appearing there.

The trick for me at least is to learn how to filter out the crud without being upset. It is not easy, I think I have had trouble with negative feedback my whole life. But if there is one positive idea in a thread, isn’t it worth sorting through and ignoring the dreck? And this is not a passive experiment, We can contribute the good ideas, we can lead by example. I’m trying to be less argumentative. I’m trying to be more thoughtful. There’s some value in that for myself. You may already be where I’m trying to go, I don’t know. But it seems worth trying. It seems worth sticking around and making a positive contribution. Who knows, you might make one person somewhere nod their head and think and be happy for a moment in time.

That’s a good thing, and I hope that whatever you do and wherever you go, you keep making things and saying things and trying to make the world a better place.

Sincerely,

Reginald Braithwaite.

Re: Why I now, unfortunately, hate Hacker News..

#312
post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, I'll try that too.

If you would ever consider putting a quote in the guidelines, I heartily recommend and humbly submit Teddy Roosevelt's Man in the Arena It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who er…

I really enjoy that, that is a great quote. It is the last thing I read before posting this comment and I instantly started looking for a more diplomatic way to tell you that I think it's a bit poetic and would likely be skipped by people who don't have the time to decipher the metaphors. Then again, it seems to have worked.

Re: Why I now, unfortunately, hate Hacker News..

#313
post #114

It's a genuine problem and has been growing gradually worse for a while. I think the cause is simply growth. When a good community grows, it becomes worse in two ways: (a) more recent arrivals don't have as much of whatever quality distinguished the original members, and (b) the large size of the group makes people behave worse, because there is more anonymity in a larger group. I've spent many hours over the past se…

Have you read the PageRank paper? It's mostly intuitive so it's not painful to read:

http://ilpubs.stanford.edu:8090/422/1/1999-66.pdf

Note expecially section 6, "Personalized PageRank", where they replace the random jump with a jump back to some basis pages. Your own up votes/downvotes probably make a pretty good set of reference points, so a PageRank-like algorithm could be heavily weighted according to your own judgement.

To be totally clear, I'm not suggesting everyone get personalized results, but rather that HN is the same for everyone, one view "personalized" according to your judgment (and obviously that propagates through to include the judgement of the people you respect, and they respect, etc).

Yes this is a handwave, and Google has gone lightyears beyond this early paper. But intuitively it may help you think about the problem. It's really going to be some iterative algorithm that flows through all the upvotes and downvotes to determine the authority of each vote, perhaps in a similar way to how the authority of each link on the web can be calculated.

Re: Why I now, unfortunately, hate Hacker News..

#314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

maybe the new kids don't know any better? can we crowd-educate them as to acceptable comments? stackoverflow has used strict categorization of "reasons for flagging post" to great success in influencing how the crowd moderates. "-1, poor tone" "-1, offtopic" "-1, factually incorrect"

That's a neat idea. -1 doesn't mean much without a comment explaining why. I do have a concern, though. If this system is implemented, doesn't that mean that the "new kids" will also have access to this system and may use it to exasperate HN's "new kids" problem? What about modifying the existing HN guidelines to include comments and promote the guidelines more? For example, cite a downvote with an appropriate quote…

But with a clear cut system like the one mentioned above, why shouldn't new members get to downvote as well? The system would clearly convey its intended usage, and in the process bring new members up to speed faster. If you still want to impose a restriction, it definitely shouldn't be karma based. I find it a bit counter-intuitive. [Assume maximum evil] You're going to allow someone to downvote others based on how quickly and effectively he can troll the hivemind to give him 500-1000 or heck even 5000 karma?

Re: Why I now, unfortunately, hate Hacker News..

#315
post #303
post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an old joke. You make a request and somebody acquiesces more easily than you expected, so you follow up with an absurd request like "Also, can I have a million dollars?" And now I went and explained it. Sorry, tptacek.

Ah, got it (humble pie eaten, apologies tptacek).

People should stop piling onto you with downvotes. No apology necessary.

Re: Why I now, unfortunately, hate Hacker News..

#316
post #114

It's a genuine problem and has been growing gradually worse for a while. I think the cause is simply growth. When a good community grows, it becomes worse in two ways: (a) more recent arrivals don't have as much of whatever quality distinguished the original members, and (b) the large size of the group makes people behave worse, because there is more anonymity in a larger group. I've spent many hours over the past se…

The idea I'm currently investigating, in case anyone is curious, is that votes rather than comments may be the easiest place to attack this problem. I think the principle that (give or take passing a karma threshold) all contributors are equal and one vote is one vote has probably outlived its usefulness. Perhaps up and/or down votes from established, positive contributors should simply carry more weight. Another pos…

Although I want to agree with you, I'm highly skeptical on the super-downvote feature. In my relatively short time here, I've seen comments by certain top contributors being argued viciously(is that the word, English is not my first language sorry). People made good points and even attacked the top commenters points, quite a lot of which I felt was valid. Now on a purely egotistical basis if he/she wanted to superdownvote the entire thread nobody could possibly do anything to prevent it. Basically what I'm saying is that even they are humans.

I'd rather have a system where instead of simple up/down vote you have an elaborate system of 'Offtopic', 'Poor taste', 'Incorrect' as mentioned in a comment somewhere above. But also, I'd like to add positive halfs of these such as 'Insightful', and maybe one or two other labels. The idea being that they can select only one out of the total, and each label should secretly have different values. So maybe flagging a comment as Incorrect isn't as penalizing as putting one as Off-topic or Poor taste. Insightful may have different positive value as compared to maybe something labelled as 'Excellent advice' or something.

With a lot of options, I don't think newbies would actually click randomly on any button without knowing the meaning and context of each button. Anyway, the buttons need not have full names, simple short letters like P/OT/I/EA/X may be enough. Of course, this automatically requires to have a way to retrieve your vote, if you accidently click on the wrong button, but it should still allow only one option to be used.

Re: Why I now, unfortunately, hate Hacker News..

#318
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes saying an idea is pointless is positive feedback, there are a lot of people here that 'launch a startup' which basically means some half-assed website that does something utterly pointless and then expect the community to be like some kind of benevolent uncle and pat them on the back and say what an awesome idea and execution. Many many ideas really are pointless and negative criticism is very much a part o…

Here's a thread from 847 days ago full of people being mean and negative about Groupon: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1288116 Today, Groupon stock is worthless, and the company is doomed. Should the people in that thread be penalized for being right, but mean?

If Groupon is a failure, I'd like to have several of those...

Re: Why I now, unfortunately, hate Hacker News..

#319
I couldn't have said it better myself. Although I haven't been member that long, I've been lurking much longer, for a while I was afraid to really comment on any story as the attitude of some of the users on this site is to put it bluntly: elitist. It's these kinds of attitudes that causes arguments and the deterioration of a community. I rarely see people posting up new startups or web ideas they've come up with out of fear of ridicule any more.

To be honest I can come across as a cynical jerk, but unlike a lot of the people I see chastising other people in the comments, I'm at times cynical but never intentionally rude. There is a big difference between cynical and just plain rude. Pick any story on the homepage at any given time and people are nitpicking at peoples grammar and arguing something isn't right instead of contributing to the discussion.

Case in point all of this recent discussion about App.net. There appear to be two sides of the fence, one of those sides is hopeful that App.net will be successful and wishing Dalton Caldwell the best and the other side are making assumptions that it's going to fail and that people won't pay to use it, blah blah blah. This is the exact attitude the poster is talking about and I think all of the App.net submissions and comments are a great example of this ridiculous behaviour.

Etiquette aside, don't get me started on the submission quality. It feels like the homepage of HN is part interesting and beneficial submissions and the other half is comprised of articles; "Hating on X programming language", a blog post written by a Svbtle author (mostly Dustin Curtis), a Daring Fireball blog post, TechCrunch news article or submission of a Github repository for something built on-top of a programming language that I don't even know.

Re: Why I now, unfortunately, hate Hacker News..

#320
post #157
post #114

It's a genuine problem and has been growing gradually worse for a while. I think the cause is simply growth. When a good community grows, it becomes worse in two ways: (a) more recent arrivals don't have as much of whatever quality distinguished the original members, and (b) the large size of the group makes people behave worse, because there is more anonymity in a larger group. I've spent many hours over the past se…

One idea I've had to help mitigate this problem is to develop a sort of "intelligence" score, where you weigh votes from high scoring individuals over votes from low scoring individuals. The easiest way I can think of to do this is to use a Flesch-Kincaid grade level test, which uses sentence length and word length to estimate reading level. A quick and dirty calculation for any post might look like: (character count…

I actually like this idea. The idea of Flesch-Kincaid tests. There was a guy on reddit who analyzed the words on different subreddits and he came to the conclusion that the average word was 'because', and average word length was around 6.7

I would think we could modify the scoring system a bit where common English words are penalized, and uncommon words are weighted a bit more. The only problem I see is, if someone plans to post code, that's going to wreck their score. Another thing would be that most of our programming names/terminologies contain very few letters. So, an exclusion/inclusion list would definitely be needed.

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