Don't force your kids to do math • Hacker News Board

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#311

Post by toast0 » Sun, Apr 20, 2025, 3:47 PM UTC

bethekidyouwant wrote: post #266

Loic wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But kids are going to have setbacks, they will reach a plateau in their craft (music, painting, art, sport, ...). You need also as a good parent to help your kids go through, to not give up, because even joy to do is not always enough. This is the hard part. From my modest experience of being a ski/snowboard instructor and trying to raise 3 boys (now 12, 16 and 18).

why does a child need to break through a plateau at anything? Of my five sample size of five, expose them and support them, some things can’t even hook you until your brain grows enough .. The musical one is in a band now the nerdy one likes inhaling solder. I did force both boys to Hockey but just to have passable skills so that he can enjoy that all that comes with the sport as an adult

> why does a child need to break through a plateau at anything?

Learning that they can hit a plateau and move beyond it with concerted effort is super important. After you've done it once, you can look back on that experience for inspiration when there's a plateau that you want/need to move beyond.

Having experience with struggling with something that is easy for some others is important too. Some kids are just naturally good at a lot of things when they're younger; which is nice in some ways, but makes it hard to learn skills to deal with challenges... It's great when they find something that challenges them (even if it doesn't seem great to them in the moment). Other kids have a hard time with most things; you've got to look out for things they can be good at.

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#312

Post by jerkstate » Sun, Apr 20, 2025, 3:47 PM UTC

jvanderbot wrote: post #305

kaashif wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can definitely make things better or worse for kids by choosing the rewards you give them. My parents would reward me by letting me pick out a book at the book store. I'd be excited the whole week. I may feel differently about reading it I had been forced to read and rewarded with something else, like junk food.

We are torn but decided to keep books scarce, and scold them a little bit when they sneak books into bed. We know but they are much more likely to get their rebellion out reading now. Which I love.

We went the other way and have plentiful books, constant library trips etc. but have had to regulate sleep by setting a regular lights out time. Executive function and mood really suffers when sleep is insufficient.

I appreciate the idea of harnessing rebellion and I'll think more on how to apply that to my parenting :)

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#313

Post by mrob » Sun, Apr 20, 2025, 3:52 PM UTC

milesrout wrote: post #136

tgsovlerkhgsel wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the kid isn't enjoying the piano lessons, will forcing them to do it for 20 minutes every day really be beneficial? Sure, they will now be able to do something - something that they absolutely hate... (also, why is it always piano that parents try to force on children?)

They don't hate it. They dislike being bad at it, they dislike working hard at things, and they like video games and scrolling on their phones. And yes practicing will result in them getting better.

The primary design goal for most traditional instruments was making them as loud as possible.

I was briefly made to play violin as a child, and I definitely hated it (fortunately my parents recognized this and didn't push too hard). The reason is in retrospect obvious: violins are loud and piercing and played close to the ear. Nobody considered hearing protection back then. I learned recorder as an adult and the loud notes can exceed 100dB(A) measured at the ear (both alto and soprano recorders, and recorders have very limited dynamics). Violins seem to be at least as loud. I would hate to play without hearing protection no matter how skilled I become.

Even in instruments where you can more easily play softly like a piano, the design for loudness can cause suffering. Pianos are much bigger than they need to be now that we have amplification, with correspondingly wide and finger-straining keys. Steel string guitars are louder than nylon but hurt more to play (and even nylon can hurt depending on your individual hand size and shape). I expect there are many children suffering hand/finger pain from being forced to play various instruments and genuinely hating it regardless of their skill level.

When a child hates something, there's often a good reason for it that isn't obvious and that they don't have the communication skills to explain.

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#314

Post by NickC25 » Sun, Apr 20, 2025, 3:54 PM UTC

As a counterpoint, look at how the Polgar sisters were raised.

Yes, Lazlo and his wife were both education professionals, and spent an inordinate amount of time dedicated to developing the girls. But look how it turned out.

On a different note, I used to hate sport when my parents forced me to play it. I liked screwing around on the computer or playing video games. However, when I found tennis naturally around 12 or 13, I couldn't get enough of it, and vastly improved on my own because I had a lot more fun playing than most of my peers did, who were forced into it by their parents. Most of them don't even play for fun anymore with friends, and I'm in my mid 30s and still play frequently.

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#315

Post by comment_anon » Sun, Apr 20, 2025, 4:00 PM UTC

Infiniti20 wrote: post #50

Surprised no one here has mentioned Kumon. Hated it but it works

I would agree. Kumon wasn't my son's favorite thing and he eventually decided/asked to stop. But the repetition and discipline of working at it every day had an influence. It didn't manifest until undergraduate but he ended up switching majors to math and is now pursuing a math PhD. Probably not common, but like learning to play the piano, I think it gave him a comfort with the basics and an intuition that allowed him to explore his own interests.

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#316

Post by margalabargala » Sun, Apr 20, 2025, 4:02 PM UTC

lukan wrote: post #111

guerrilla wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But to my knowledge, no savage kid is in need of being forced to learn it Uhh then your knowledge is very limited because that is rather well documented. Also, why are you saying "savage" like an 18th century racist? Is that in fashion again?

Oh, I am obviously a racist, by glorifying indigineous teaching methods. But otherwise can you show, where this is documented? The natives tribes where I have some knowledge, don't force their kids to learn in the sense that is talked about here. No need to - the whole culture is about becoming a good hunter (for male individuals). So indeed lots of peer pressure, but no individual forcing.

> Oh, I am obviously a racist, by glorifying indigineous teaching methods.

No, by calling people "savages", a pejorative, based on their ethnicity.

Much like how it would be racist to call people "enslavers" based on their ethnicity, or "cotton pickers" based on their ethnicity.

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#317

Post by vacuity » Sun, Apr 20, 2025, 4:07 PM UTC

mschuster91 wrote: post #275

Viliam1234 wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I taught at a nice middle-class school, so most of the problems you mention were not relevant there. And yet, it seemed like half of the kids' families were either recently divorced or in the process of divorce. I couldn't really blame those kids for not paying attention to school. And this seemed like the best case, so probably at most places it gets much worse. Education has a problem with scaling, especially at th…

> Education has a problem with scaling, especially at the elementary level. Not if you actually provide the money. Europe gets this down decently well - although I'll admit, in rural areas in Germany we got some serious consolidation issues thanks to urban flight. But at least our teachers are well paid government jobs and the job is decently attractive.

There's plenty of money thrown at schools in the US, but the issue is that the students that live in poor socioeconomic conditions tend to not do well. The "simple answer" that addresses the root cause would make individuals not subject to poverty and whatnot. But throwing money at institutions is already on the ropes in the US, let alone throwing money at the "undeserving".

(Yes, this is a political opinion. No, do not blame me for that. Politics does not come wrapped up neatly with a bow tie in a box. If you want to debate the veracity of my claim, go do that instead.)

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#318

Post by globular-toast » Sun, Apr 20, 2025, 4:10 PM UTC

NickC25 wrote: post #314

As a counterpoint, look at how the Polgar sisters were raised. Yes, Lazlo and his wife were both education professionals, and spent an inordinate amount of time dedicated to developing the girls. But look how it turned out. On a different note, I used to hate sport when my parents forced me to play it. I liked screwing around on the computer or playing video games. However, when I found tennis naturally around 12 or…

I think you might be like me. If I'm forced to do something I won't like it. But it's up to me I can find almost anything fun or interesting.

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#319

Post by jodoherty » Sun, Apr 20, 2025, 4:13 PM UTC

lordfrito wrote: post #87

jodoherty wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think most people don't care about optimizing an extra $10 out of their weekly grocery run. Probably a better example is figuring out the cost of a loan. Just multiply the amortized monthly payment by the term and compare that to the loan amount. If the difference makes you balk, then go ahead and walk. How many people even realize that loan interest is a significant cost and would bother to do that? Or know how to…

> I think most people don't care about optimizing an extra $10 out of their weekly grocery run I remember when this kind of "optimization" was done regularly by a great many shoppers on budgets. Back in the day some stores even used to put calculators on the shopping carts. People used to know how to budget. Apparently the average American is affluent enough to not need to be able to do this any more. I worry that th…

I worry too. American consumer credit card debt sounds like it's rising pretty quickly, and many people I talk to have a lack of free will and carry a sense of unfairness in the system they live in.

However, people can also adapt pretty quickly.

Those grocery shopping "optimization" skills are making a big come back (and have been since Covid). There are plenty of YouTube and TikTok videos popularizing how to get more out of their grocery hauls.

Lots of people are also learning how to budget, how to invest, etc. and sharing their excitement about it too. For some folks, they finally learn this stuff in their 40s and 50s, but there are also a lot of young adults learning these skills thanks to the Internet.

So I also have hope.

I just don't think the lack of basic math and budgeting skills displayed by average consumers are a problem so much as a symptom.

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#320

Post by toast0 » Sun, Apr 20, 2025, 4:13 PM UTC

Magma7404 wrote: post #300

cpursley wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like I commented in another post, piano gave you the foundation for learning classical guitar (and appreciating that genre of music). Very few guitar players can even recognize note names on a staff. You’re not going to get far with classical guitar without it.

> piano gave you the foundation for learning classical guitar Absolutely not. If you hate something and don't learn anything more that entry level, it won't give you any foundation, only hatred and bitterness. Also the piano and the guitar are very different beasts that you cannot compare at all.

The piano and the guitar are different in many ways, but they also have some similarities depending on how you play them.

Mechanically, sure, nothing transfers. Rhythm transfers pretty well. An ear for what sounds right would too.

If you're reading printed music, that transfers. A lot of guitar play comes from tabs though, which isn't really transferrable.

If you play chords on the piano and the guitar, and especially if you're thinking about chord progressions, that transfers. But you might play either instrument without a lot of chords.

Lead melody kinds of things can transfer a bit. Especially if you were thinking about how the notes in the melody fit with the chords, even if you didn't play the chords.

Even if you didn't think you were learning music fundamentals, you might have picked up something.