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IBM orders US sales to locate near customers, RTO for cloud staff, DEI purge

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Re: IBM orders US sales to locate near customers, RTO for cloud staff, DEI purge

#311

Post by wredcoll »

abracadaniel wrote: post #301
s1artibartfast wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess we don't agree what DEI is. I'm against different criteria for people based on race. This is most apparent in school admissions and affirmative action. I think it is a clear violation of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 to have dual standards based on race. Also, I don't appreciate you blatant racism putting all white people into a single stereotype, not do I think it is accurate

I think definition is definitely an issue in the debate. What you’re describing I knew as affirmative action. I’ve only understood DEI as being willing to hire from diverse backgrounds, implemented by posting job positions in diverse areas like HBCUs. I’ve not personally seen any examples of different criteria for different people. Is this actually documented as something companies with DEI initiatives were doing pos…

The terms get lumped together by conservatives and then blamed for all evils. Defining it might help, but good luck with that.

Re: IBM orders US sales to locate near customers, RTO for cloud staff, DEI purge

#312

Post by theshackleford »

leereeves wrote: post #258
chneu wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DEI is just giving other people the chance to setup the opportunity pipeline that already exists for white people in a white dominated society. It isn't a law. It's just looking at history and going, "They'd probably be as successful if there was a pipeline for those folks to get there, since that pipeline doesn't exist we need to represent them to allow the pipeline to be built." You also don't seem to fully know wh…

> the opportunity pipeline that already exists for white people There is no opportunity pipeline for white people. There is an opportunity pipeline for a small number of well connected, wealthy people who can get their kids into elite prep schools starting from kindergarten. It's not open to working class white people. Edit: that doesn't mean no working class white person can succeed. Just that the prep school, elite…

I come from a working class background, if that’s what you can call two parents who have spent most of their life on welfare of various kinds. I along with many of my white friends are now high six figure earners.

I have no high school completion, no university education, no qualifications. So obviously it’s not as closed as you are pretending it is.

Re: IBM orders US sales to locate near customers, RTO for cloud staff, DEI purge

#313

Post by wredcoll »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #239
croes wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Merit seems to be highly subjective given that the people in current US administration are all hired based on merit.

I'd just say that I find it very frustrating that the argument for "one side" is how insane "the other side" is, because then that pretends that reasonable solutions (and not what I would call "compromises") don't exist, because you're only looking at the extremes. Yes, I think it's nuts to replace "DEI hires" with DUI hires and pretend that is "merit based", and I think the US has become a pretty full-blown kakistoc…

> but in practice I always saw it looking for excuses as to why people who got ahead were privileged and why people who didn't were marginalized, regardless of the individual's actual circumstances.

I feel like it's easy to notice the examples where it stood out. A survey of all the actual results might (or might not!) change your opinion. That being said, it's easy to say stuff like "everyone should be treated equally!", it's slightly harder to actually mean it, and it's even harder to do something about it.

We're certainly not legislators debating a bill before us, we're on social media arguing, but it'd be nice if people complaining made some effort to think of a solution.

Re: IBM orders US sales to locate near customers, RTO for cloud staff, DEI purge

#314

Post by makeitdouble »

rayiner wrote: post #176
chimpanzee wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with what you’re explicitly stating, but I can’t tell if you acknowledge and accept the implications. As it stands, your statement boils down to “DEI is not diverse enough.” If one also accepts gp’s point, then it seems DEI should continue, but be applied more carefully and thoughtfully. This would likely mean an increase in resources dedicated to DEI. I agree and would welcome this (without requiring it lega…

[flagged]

What _doesn't_ change how you do your job ?

Does it make a difference if half a day in a month you're in pain ? Does it impact your human skills if you'll get shot by a cop if you're drunk in the middle of the night ? Will it make a difference if you go to golf with your boss or go to the same book club as your scrum master ?

You can argue whether any difference is worth it or not, but truth is we all have our opinions, we're probably right on some and wrong on other, and nobody knows exactly what actually matters. So we try to cover our bases.

Re: IBM orders US sales to locate near customers, RTO for cloud staff, DEI purge

#315

Post by mystraline »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #231
Timon3 wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The goal is to measure merit. Objective metrics are the nearest thing we have to achieving that goal. If there is a better metric, you use that instead. But if the best metric we have isn't perfect, that's no argument for doing something even worse. You may notice that I didn't argue against objective metrics at all? All I've said is that objective metrics don't mean you're directly measuring merit. It's important…

> You may notice that I didn't argue against objective metrics at all? All I've said is that objective metrics don't mean you're directly measuring merit. It's important to keep this in mind, for example by ensuring equal access to specialized training materials. But then who are you arguing against? Is there someone strongly opposed to providing equal access to training materials, e.g. by making them available in sc…

> In general the poor kids live in higher density areas and the affluent kids live in the suburbs.

The poor kids also live rural.

Remind me again, where there are lower costs, but also lower income, less opportunity, harder to get anywhere, less education? And also, who did most of rural vote for?

In most situations, rural = poverty = trap. Our society is nowhere near prepared in addressing the rurality and poverty trap.

But really, this whole dei being a proxy for this gender or that race issue is looking around the real problem. In the end, its all about access to 2 resources: money and time. The bourgeoisie have it, the proletariat do not. As long as there is a massive gulf between the 2, we'll argue this in different names and forms (civil rights, affirmative action, political correctness, DEI)

Re: IBM orders US sales to locate near customers, RTO for cloud staff, DEI purge

#316

Post by wredcoll »

Timon3 wrote: post #248
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's my whole point: rich people have access to better materials. This is simply a fact. "Rich people have more money" isn't an interesting fact, it's just the definition of rich people. > How about introducing DEI programs that help these disadvantaged people access the same materials? The term "DEI" has been applied to disparate impact rules and other policies that amount to race quotas and correspondingly garn…

> "Rich people have more money" isn't an interesting fact, it's just the definition of rich people. That's not what I said. This is bordering on bad faith, please don't do that. > The term "DEI" has been applied to disparate impact rules and other policies that amount to race quotas and correspondingly garner strong opposition. If you want to advance good policies, you should stop using the same term to apply to them…

Personally I appreciate your merit. Starting the race 100 meters ahead of the other runners probably doesn't get you a very accurate measure of who is the fastest.

Re: IBM orders US sales to locate near customers, RTO for cloud staff, DEI purge

#317

Post by gorgoiler »

Anon1096 wrote: post #148
jmward01 wrote: post #100

The anit-DEI stuff is predicated on an idea that there is a clear known 'best fit' for a position and it shouldn't take into account X, whatever X is. The problem is always this, nobody actually knows what a best fit really is. Nature shows us that one trait leads to longer term survival, diversity. When you think you know the traits that pick most suitable and exclude other traits then you are getting rid of the cha…

The American conception of diversity that looks for race and gender ends up grouping 60% of the world together as "Asian". These are regions of the world with vast cultural differences (the obvious because South VS East Asia) and even within countries someone from Beijing is vastly different from someone from Xinjiang. It's extremely western-biased to look at what's going on in DEI efforts and think that it in any wa…

To be fair to DEI, the D could easily stand for “anti-homogeneity”. To that extent, Beijing, Xinjiang, Lahore, Jakarta, or Manila makes no difference. All that matters is you’re not being excluded just because you look or sound different.

Re: IBM orders US sales to locate near customers, RTO for cloud staff, DEI purge

#318

Post by wredcoll »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #264
Timon3 wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Rich people have more money" isn't an interesting fact, it's just the definition of rich people. That's not what I said. This is bordering on bad faith, please don't do that. > The term "DEI" has been applied to disparate impact rules and other policies that amount to race quotas and correspondingly garner strong opposition. If you want to advance good policies, you should stop using the same term to apply to them…

> That's not what I said. This is bordering on bad faith, please don't do that. The premise of a meritocracy isn't that everyone is the same, it's that everyone is subject to the same standard. The alternatives are things like racism or nepotism where someone gets the position even if they're not expected to do a better job, because of their race or because their father owns the company. But merit isn't a fixed prope…

> People don't strongly oppose libraries that stock study books. They oppose race quotas.

People absolutely do oppose libraries. They also oppose programs that pay for tutors for poor kids, programs that allocate more money to schools in poorer neighborhoods and basically anything else you can think of.

But I do admit it must make your life incredibly simple to just pretend racism doesn't exist and everyone ends up in the exact position they deserve.

Re: IBM orders US sales to locate near customers, RTO for cloud staff, DEI purge

#319

Post by wredcoll »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #216
croes wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would need some inclusion laws that enforce preferred hires from lower financial backgrounds instead of better prepared candidates with more resources.

So why is that not the proposal instead of DEI?

Because it's incredibly complicated and proxying it via race is easier and humans like easy?

Re: IBM orders US sales to locate near customers, RTO for cloud staff, DEI purge

#320

Post by archagon »

onetimeusename wrote: post #283
rayiner wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The anti-DEI push is not about “white supremacy,” but rather what some disparagingly call “multiracial whiteness.” It’s basically a return to the 1990s, when we retained a distinctly Anglo-flavored dominant American culture, but anyone could assimilate into that culture.

[flagged]

Holy baloney, that is some top grade insane rambling. (Seriously, "Hitler-centric"? Are we just throwing darts at the scary word board now?) The administration pays lip service to getting rid of DEI, but then tries to erase genuine American heroes like Harriet Tubman while hiring completely unqualified candidates like Pete Hegseth, glorifying genocidal maniacs like Andrew Jackson, and restoring racist Confederate monuments that should have been melted down in the 60's.

If you don't see the white supremacy inherent in these actions, you are like a fish in water.

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