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Are people bad at their jobs or are the jobs just bad?

annehelen.substack.com

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Re: Are people bad at their jobs or are the jobs just bad?

#311
post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A big difference is that the jr. dev is learning compared to the AI who is stuck at whatever competence was baked in from the factory. You might be more patient with the jr if you saw positive signs that the handholding was paying off.

I would be more patient with an AI that only costs me a fraction of a cent an hour.

The value of my time dwarfs the cost of using an AI.

That said, you are underestimating AI costs if you think it works out to a fraction of a cent per hour.

Re: Are people bad at their jobs or are the jobs just bad?

#312
I take some issue with the notion that we shouldn't blame the individual who does a bad job because of the system that incentivizes them to do a bad job.'

Let's say you have someone working a cash register. It is rare for a manager to check the amount of money in the register, and it's certainly too infrequent for them to be able to determine who took money from the register if any were missing. This is a system that encourages low paid employees to take money from the register - it's clearly in their personal best interest. As the store loses money to these issues, it's harder to pay a good wage to a large staff, so individual compensation is going to get worse, further incentivizing skimming.

On could obviously see the system has a flaw, and it could be fixed with more managerial effort. But at the same time the employees are just straight up stealing. They are actively choosing to do something which is clearly unethical simply because they can get away with it. Those upstanding individuals who do the right thing suffer the consequences - whether it be a less prosperous employer or a less trusting management - because of these selfish individuals.

Applying the same principle, those who intentionally do a bad job, such as throwing packages in the bushes or not putting in the effort to make sure a prescription is filled properly, are likewise acting unethically in their own self interest because they can get away with it. They are stealing time or energy instead of money, but in the grand scheme of things they are all mutually interchangeable.

I do think that better pay, better aligned incentives, and better training would all help, and the broader trend of enshittification is obvious. There is a price point below which quality is just not really viable, and those who want cheaper will get what they pay for. But treating those employees who are active participants in this system, the ones who agree to take the jobs for low pay and then cut corners to make up for it, as helpless victims of the system with no agency is intellectually stifling.

Re: Are people bad at their jobs or are the jobs just bad?

#313
post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Definitely squeezed. They say AI, but AI isn't eliminating programming. I've wrote a few applications with AI assistance. It probably would've been faster if I wrote it myself. The problem is that it doesn't have context and wildly assumes what your intentions are and cheats outcomes. It will replace juniors for that one liner, it won't replace a senior developer who knows how to write code.

> The problem is that it doesn't have context You are supposed to give it context, if you dont provide it context how will it know what its supposed to do?

I really wish that was the case. You can give it only so much context before it starts to go down a path where the context doesn't even make sense to it, and yet if you explained it to a colleague they would instantly understand.

Context has layers and really 1st or 2nd layers ever get reached by AI but it can't dive further because it is too focused on the final output rather than the continuation of the output.

For example you write code and then tell it what the final expect output is, it some how always divorces itself from rudimentary implementations and poops out something that cut a lot holes out or shortcuts all of your work. Removes modularity in favor of that immediate outcome. AI is just not good enough to understand the complex relationship of maintainable code and deliverable code. So it poops out what is easily made to meet the deliverable.

Re: Are people bad at their jobs or are the jobs just bad?

#314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who is more in the middle of my career rather than the end of it, I would like to echo your sentiment. I have had plenty of roles where I was tasked with things that were out of my depth, and the answer is to just not let it be. There is always a path to get the answers/skills you need to do what is asked of you, you just might not know the path yet, so the core skill (and where I think fear comes into the…

How do you slog through something you truly hate? More than a decade ago I was hired as an intern at Colgate-Palmolive as a software developer. Turns out they were(are?) one of the largest SAP deployments in the US. The entire company revolved around SAP. Due to lack of college graduates knowing SAP, they took great pains to treat me extremely well and train me (a CS major) in ABAP using SAP Netweaver. My project was…

I have a similar tale. A semester before college ended, I got a professor who worked for a large company in the poultry business. I was one of the few people who was doing well in the Java 101 class and I was also going out of my way to help a few people struggling with it. Because of my tenacity, he decided to give me a short internship in IT.

Long story short, it didn't go well. I struggled to fit in, they threw me straight into the fire, and the people around me did not want to help. After 90 days, the manager called me into the office and told me I didn't make the cut. It was the first time I had been fired from a job and I felt terrible.

Looking back this was the lesson I learned. Things happen for a reason and sometimes, things that look bad are actually a blessing in disguise.

The company I was interning at had an awful culture where no one help anyone else. People were constantly getting fired and due to that there was a dog eat dog mentality there. The software was old stuff, SAP and other stuff like that. In retrospect, I'm really glad that I was fired; I dodged a major bullet.

I ended up finding another job quickly right after I graduated with an amazing company in a more amazing city.

Re: Are people bad at their jobs or are the jobs just bad?

#315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you slog through something you truly hate? More than a decade ago I was hired as an intern at Colgate-Palmolive as a software developer. Turns out they were(are?) one of the largest SAP deployments in the US. The entire company revolved around SAP. Due to lack of college graduates knowing SAP, they took great pains to treat me extremely well and train me (a CS major) in ABAP using SAP Netweaver. My project was…

"How do you slog through something you truly hate?" - I don't. When signals that a role is not aligned with my needs start cropping up, I begin searching for a new role passively, and as the situation develops I speed up my search. "I felt like a complete failure because I didn't put in 100% and I felt like I let my mentor down" - to thine own self be true. I have failed to put in 100% at some jobs, and sometimes i r…

Same here. I've worked really hard to not end up in miserable position. I also realize there are things not in my control. If work changes, you can either change work or just leave. Leaving is often the much better option.

This reminds me of the Zen Koan where the teacher holds a stick.

The teacher says to the student, “If you tell me this stick is real, “I will hit you with it. “If you tell me it is not real, I will hit you with it. If you say nothing, I will hit you with it.”

And so, the student reaches out, grabs the stick, and breaks it.

Re: Are people bad at their jobs or are the jobs just bad?

#316
post #227

I agree with the author's point, which basically boils down to "pay peanuts, get monkeys." But I think another large issue is a deep lack of respect at these jobs, in every way. They are impersonal, they are short-term, you are a cog in a machine, they don't know your name, the customers don't know your name, they don't care about you, you are replaceable, you don't care about the work, why would you?

... that's the problem right? The big furniture factory is good at making (cheap) furniture, but they are very bad at managing local teams to deliver and assemble and ... IKEA (at least in most of Europe) is good at this, because they spend a lot of attention and invest in their local presence (all of their big stores have pretty okay fast-food restaurant, as far as I understand) ... so of course it would make sense…

IKEA in the US has a good fast-food restaurant as well (although I'd call it more of a cafeteria). On the other hand, in the US, IKEA doesn't value making it easy to navigate the store or developing a competent assembly service. I think the issue is that companies will generally either see something as a core competency, or at least central to brand identity, and therefore put more effort into it, or they'll see it as non-core, in which case it will go to the cheapest option.

Re: Are people bad at their jobs or are the jobs just bad?

#317
post #3

I have been in the workforce for almost 30 years now and I believe that everybody is getting more squeezed so they don’t have the time or energy to do a proper job. The expectation is to get it done as quickly as possible and not do more unless told so. In SW development in the 90s I had much more time for experimentation to figure things out. In the last years you often have some manager where you basically have to…

I've even seen this and it seems to have accelerated in the last 10 years or so. I'm seeing roles be combined, deadlines get tighter, and quality go down. Documentation has also gotten worse. This all seems pretty odd when you consider the tools to develop, test, and even document have mostly gotten more powerful/better/faster.

What documentation?

Re: Are people bad at their jobs or are the jobs just bad?

#318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If you asked a junior developer to refactor a rust program to be more idiomatic, how long would you expect that to take? Would you expect the work to compile on the first try?" The purpose of giving that task to a junior dev isn't to get the task done, it's to teach them -- I will almost always be at least an order order of magnitude faster than a junior for any given task. I don't expect juniors to be similarly pro…

Personally, I think training someone on the client’s dime is pretty unethical.

You have misunderstood something here.

I (like a very large plurality, maybe even a majority, of devs) do not work for a consulting firm. There is no client.

I've done consulting work in the past, though. Any leader who does not take into account (at least to some degree) relative educational value of assignments when staffing projects is invariably a bad leader.

All work is training for a junior. In this context, the idea that you can't ethically train a junior "on a client's dime" is exactly equivalent to saying that you can't ever ethically staff juniors on a consulting project -- that's a ridiculous notion. The work is going to get done, but a junior obviously isn't going to be as fast as I am at any task.

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