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How Kerala got rich

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Re: How Kerala got rich

#311

Post by human_person »

panick21_ wrote: post #310
xhkkffbf wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Education is tricky. The wrong education can really stunt your economic competitiveness. I'm sure the Soviet world had plenty of classroom time devoted to the glory of Communism. Each classroom probably had a politruk available to help out. Too many kids go to other universities and study similar things. It's fine to explore these ideas, but at the end of the day you've got to make someone happy or they won't pay you…

They also had really good maths and other useful things. They actually did what many in the West many wanted. Their education wasn't bad, learning wrong history isn't really that economically relevant. But yeah, if the economy can't use those people its just not effective.

Learning wrong history can be economically relevant. So much of history is about learning patterns of human behavior. Patterns that often repeat. If you learn wrong or untrue history your understanding of and expectations for human behavior will be incorrect which will certainly cause economic issues.

Re: How Kerala got rich

#312

Post by SJC_Hacker »

xhkkffbf wrote: post #308
SJC_Hacker wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Universities accept international students, and hire faculty educated outside the US More relevant would be K-12

They hire foreigners largely because they're much cheaper than Americans. The schools have little trouble getting visas for foreign professors so, of course, they maximize their profits by hiring the cheapest they can get.

I don't think thats the case at all

At least in STEM, its all about the ability to get grants. A professor who consistently gets grants is worth their weight in gold in "indirect" costs. Foreigner or otherwise

Re: How Kerala got rich

#313

Post by Gud »

__rito__ wrote: post #290
Gud wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you call empty, many would call spacious. Not everywhere has to be crowded.

When I say empty, I mean, houses are there, and they are unoccupied. Schools are there, but there aren't students. Etc. Did you even read what I linked? And it was not the only reason I wrote the comment. There are other points in the comment as well.

Point taken.

Re: How Kerala got rich

#314

Post by panick21_ »

human_person wrote: post #311
panick21_ wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They also had really good maths and other useful things. They actually did what many in the West many wanted. Their education wasn't bad, learning wrong history isn't really that economically relevant. But yeah, if the economy can't use those people its just not effective.

Learning wrong history can be economically relevant. So much of history is about learning patterns of human behavior. Patterns that often repeat. If you learn wrong or untrue history your understanding of and expectations for human behavior will be incorrect which will certainly cause economic issues.

Maybe if you are in top level government. But for 99% of workers it doesn't matter much.

Also, much of typical school history most people learn is incredibly shallow and the waste majority of people barley remember anything. Research show this pretty clearly. So teaching something wrong, is not gone matter much.

Re: How Kerala got rich

#315

Post by psd1 »

zozbot234 wrote: post #171
pphysch wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Keep in mind that a mismanaged government can be a lot more predatory than any private actor. What's the basis for this claim? What is a "mismanaged government" but one that is controlled by narrow private interests? Or is this coming from a "all tax is exploitation" angle?

Is there a government that's not ultimately controlled by narrow private interests? A well-managed government is merely one where inbuilt norms and traditions (including the Western traditions of constitutional human rights and separation of powers, but not only!) manage to limit the extent to which the narrow private interest of government actors can lead to predatory exploitation of the broader public.

> Is there a government that's not ultimately controlled by narrow private interests?

Without deep knowledge, I'd suggest Switzerland, simply because of the directness of its democracy

Re: How Kerala got rich

#316

Post by anon291 »

panick21_ wrote: post #309
anon291 wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meh. That's most stories attributed to the apostles. The story of st Thomas is ancient and even before colonization, the prevailing attitude in Europe was that st Thomas and st Bartholomew both proselytized India. You'll find references to this in many books and manuscripts. In fact many European maps contained the belief that there was a Christian kingdom in Kerala. They even had saints from there whose stories made…

> That's most stories attributed to the apostles. ... all > The story of st Thomas is ancient and even before colonization So? All Christian communities made up a bunch of nonsense about themselves, often linking themselves to the early church. > the prevailing attitude in Europe was that st Thomas and st Bartholomew both proselytized India. Yes and if you actually look up why that is the 'prevailing attitude' you wi…

There is really nothing written about Christianity until fairly late. At the time certain Christian writing originates in Europe, Christianity is well established in India. The various other stories attributed to the apostles are variously assumed to be partially true. For example, St Peters martyrdom at the Vatican hill, which was later found to be true.

There are two factions vying to de-link India from early Christianity, the white nationalists and the hindutvas. You've stepped into this mess because in a thread where I pointed out Christianity in India is native to India and as old or older than Europe you butted in to point out that may be the story of the apostles is not true

We can have a debate on the veracity of early Christian claims, but this is really not the place for it. The Syriac church has existed in Kerala for as long as Christianity and they do things their own way

> Christian kingdoms in the East threw-out the middle ages.

Indeed. The difference of course is that, the Syriacs have existed the entire time and are not a story

Re: How Kerala got rich

#317

Post by psd1 »

panick21_ wrote: post #280
zozbot234 wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Capitalism" is a very confusing word that should be avoided in a serious discussion one way or the other, society is a lot more complex than that. For instance "crony capitalism" is also seemingly capitalism but is directly opposed to the broad principles of a market economy that people think of as good.

"Crony Capitalism" is just a term socialists came up with to shit on capitalism. The reality is every society is going to have some amount of corruption and cronyism. But "Crony Capitalism" isn't an actual coherent concepts, it doesn't have 'principles', its just highlighting something negative that happens in countries, including capitalist ones. Socialists love to add some negative word 'X' to capitalism to highlig…

Can you smell straw?

Let me give you a tool for your mental toolkit. When you find yourself saying this:

> loves to

...it's a smell. What follows may be perfectly reasonable, but in my experience it's more commonly unexamined twaddle.

If you happen to be American, see where you get with these:

- many Americans fetishise America - J Edgar Hoover spent 20 years programming Americans to consider socialism to be "un-American"

In this case, I think a little reflection would reveal a J Edgar Hoover homonculus in your head, pulling your levers.

I'm all for emotional arguments. Ultimately, we all have core values, and I like to lead an argument by stating mine.

But hating socialism isn't a core value, it's _at best_ a reaction. Which is to say, if you're from, ooh, Bulgaria or Cuba, then I can indulge you. You may not be logical but you do have cause.

If you merely have a little J Edgar Hoover homonculus in your head, pulling your levers, then refrain from posting, because a J Edgar Hoover homonculus is not an interesting conversationalist.

Re: How Kerala got rich

#318

Post by spyckie2 »

panick21_ wrote: post #277
spyckie2 wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I noticed this in Taiwan between 2018-2020 when I was staying there. A highly educated population but with little to no opportunities. Most of very ambitious talent found jobs in China or Singapore. A strong business environment, or strong investment opportunities, or a large consumer base is very much needed to have attractive jobs. A strongly educated workforce does little to enable such an environment. Intuitively…

I think its just perception. A place that is smaller will appear to have more movement because its across country, while in China or the US you would just move internally. Taiwan had amazing economic growth for 50+ years. The reality is that in all places the most ambitious people are likely going to move, as such talents usually depend on specific environments. And with things like TSMC in Taiwan, claiming anything…

I worked in a recruitment company in SEA for software devs and management/exec layers.

Just sharing my perspective, Taiwan's Software Devs were paid 1/3 of what devs in SG or HK are paid, the biggest reason being there aren't any software companies headquartered in Taiwan that are big/growing fast enough to offer competitive salaries to SG / HK. In SG/HK you have banks, hedgefunds and tech companies all competing for talent—Grab, Amazon, Google, Shopee, DBS, HSBC, etc, pushing up prices to be competitive globally. Taiwan's local companies have to make enough money to pay global salaries for strong talent, or they just get their best talent poached by SG/HK or China (which has plenty of strong tech giants of their own).

But... a tiny 23 million population island where the average wage is low and people are generally happy and content... is not a great business environment for startups. I think some local startups saturated the Taiwan market with like 70% of the island's population in their database... and like $2-5m US revenue/yr? Great achievement but not a large base for continued rev growth.

As a Taiwanese company, you are not winning against bigger tech companies in China. Neither are you building for english speaking audiences of SEA because Taiwan's english is not native... in short, the local market conditions is just unable to pay for global level talent, who leave.

This is a software dev focused view of Taiwan, but it applies to all or most other industries not named TSMC.

Re: How Kerala got rich

#319

Post by goku12 »

mavelikara wrote: post #304
goku12 wrote: post #226

There is one part of the story that any reader should be well aware of, when consuming any content about Kerala - especially public comments on fora like HN. Kerala is deeply against extreme right wing politics. The big RW national coalition has struggled over the decades to grab power in Kerala. The RW has in turn spreads falsehoods, derogatory statements and outright propaganda against Kerala - very often based on…

Fellow-Malayalee here. Thank you for taking the time to write this comment!

You're welcome! Though, it's sad that it has come to this. And this isn't the first time I had to do it either.

Re: How Kerala got rich

#320

Post by Lio »

aprilthird2021 wrote: post #252
mc32 wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you expound on this idea? What does anti-wealth have to do with Christianity and how does Communism enter the frame in India? Prior to the mid 60s seeking betterment and wealth was one of the main reasons people migrated to the US replacing religious persecution back home as the main reason to come.

Christianity (esp. Catholicism) and socialism have a long connection, especially in South America, which did not have the economic miracle Kerala did. Kerala did not become wealthy from socialism, it became literate and land reform lifted many out of poverty. The actual wealth started accumulating when Keralites took advantage of opportunities to work abroad and send remittances home. That has been a major economic d…

Socialism maybe the but the Roman Catholic church has a strong history of opposition to communism.

I would suggest God's Bankers: A History of Money and Power at the Vatican as for a pop-culture introduction of how the Catholic church aligned itself with fascist states including Mussolini's PNF, the Nazis and the Ustaše.

The Ustaše were particularly closely associated with the Catholic church.

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