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In Jail Without a Lawyer: How a Texas Town Fails Poor Defendants

nytimes.com

311–320 of 457 posts

Re: In Jail Without a Lawyer: How a Texas Town Fails Poor Defendants

#311
post #203
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think at this point the general consensus of most Europeans is that the US has more in common with a developing nation than with a developed nation when it comes to equality in the eye of justice, equal access to health care, support for the downtrodden and freedoms...

This general consensus is part of why Trump gets support for his recent trade and defense comments and actions. Also, from an economic perspective the US has been successful and has poured that success into different buckets than Europe would prefer but that's fine, let the US be the US and let Europe be Europe. Numbers for anyone curious US gdp per capita ~$82.7k EU gdp per capita ~$41.1k

This comment also illustrates why many have an issue with Americans.

“We’re rich” is not a reasonable defense against hurting people, yet it is consistently what Americans choose as their defense.

Re: In Jail Without a Lawyer: How a Texas Town Fails Poor Defendants

#312
post #128

Anyone who has ever dealt with the US justice system as just some regular bloke knows it is broken. 90% of it is about extorting the population for funding for the courts and cops. If you can't afford a lawyer, they will provide you with a joke. And if you can afford a lawyer, now its just a question if you are willing to spend more on your lawyer than the state is hoping to extort from you. If you are, you will get…

Some defense lawyers have a flat rate (a few thousand USD) for drunk driving cases. They call up a few "experts" who can brandish a threat of paperwork at the prosecution and reliably get charges dropped to negligent operations or similar. So if you are in the know a bit of drunk driving is a 2k fine. If not, you loose your drivers license and likely your livelihood.

Same as speeding tickets. Nobody who knows what's what and has even a little cash to spare gets an actual moving violation out of a speeding ticket for less than a crazy amount over the speed limit, unless somebody in the court system is pissed off at them.

The reason is that a moving violation fucks up your insurance rates and costs a ton of money over time, so it ends up being in everyone's interest to pay a lawyer (takes a cut of what would have been paid in higher insurance rates) to ask their colleague's golfing buddy ("hey, Jim says your short game's getting better!") to accept a plea (less work, hooray!) for a non-moving violation that, gee, would you look at that, just happens to have a fine double what the speeding ticket would have (another cut of the would-have-been-higher-insurance-rates goes here) so sure, the city government and courts are perfectly happy with that arrangement.

Re: In Jail Without a Lawyer: How a Texas Town Fails Poor Defendants

#313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> . Two years on, and we were just at the beginning of "discovery" -- an amazingly invasive process that appears to be unique to the US legal system. This is common in almost all legal systems. How else would the defendant get to examine the evidence against them and how else would you provide evidence if there was no discovery process? Its hard to imagine there would be a legal system without it.

In China I recall that "the burden of proof was on the parties" and both sides were asked to submit all relevant evidence to the court. Then there were a couple of meetings where my lawyer met with the other side's lawyer to review the evidence. If you're the plaintiff and you have evidence that supports your version of events, you give it all to the court. If you're the defendant and you have exculpatory evidence, o…

>the court attained the right outcome, and I won the case.

Ha, well, you would say that.

Re: In Jail Without a Lawyer: How a Texas Town Fails Poor Defendants

#314
post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you're the plaintiff and you have evidence that supports your version of events, you give it all to the court. If you're the defendant and you have exculpatory evidence, or anything that shows that the case is frivolous, you give it all to the court. Yes, but what if you're the plaintiff/defendant and the other party has evidence in your favor? How do you get it before the court? That is what discovery is for. H…

> Yes, but what if you're the plaintiff/defendant and the other party has evidence in your favor? How do you get it before the court? That is what discovery is for. What do you know of this evidence and how do you know about it? > Honestly it just sounds like you had an easy case tried in China and a hard one tried in the US and are making some really broad assertions about the two legal systems based on a small samp…

The Tesla ran into me while I was crossing the crosswalk and then took off. I was able to capture their license plate. We tracked them down and were able to ask them, but they denied that they had done this. I sued them in civil court to cover my medical expenses. I happen to know what Teslas keep a video log of these. The defendant wouldn’t provide it willingly until we went into discovery and they were compelled to provide it, which made my case.

This is but one of infinite examples of the other party having evidence helpful to the other side and harmful to themselves.

Re: In Jail Without a Lawyer: How a Texas Town Fails Poor Defendants

#315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People in the States know how fast our country can fall and don’t accept “well, we’ve still got a ways to go” as an excuse for the descent. The so-called best shouldn’t compare itself to others, it should compare itself to itself from yesterday. And in those regards, we are descending rapidly, especially for those of us LGBTQ+, women and minorities. Do not forget how fast Saudi Arabia and other countries changed from…

[flagged]

I'd say imprisoning hundreds of people without any form of due process is a rapid descent.

Re: In Jail Without a Lawyer: How a Texas Town Fails Poor Defendants

#316

Anyone who has ever dealt with the US justice system as just some regular bloke knows it is broken. 90% of it is about extorting the population for funding for the courts and cops. If you can't afford a lawyer, they will provide you with a joke. And if you can afford a lawyer, now its just a question if you are willing to spend more on your lawyer than the state is hoping to extort from you. If you are, you will get…

I agree 100%. I've written about this here before, but I've been involved in two civil lawsuits in my life. One was in the USA, the other was in mainland China. I should stress that I am an American, and I wasn't even in China when the lawsuit over there was moving along. The Chinese process was very fast -- it went before a judge who reached a verdict in something like ten months -- and it was extremely inexpensive.…

It's only part of the tapestry of the story, but IIRC in the New Jim Crow by Michelle Alexander, she notes that the USA stopped funding the creation of courts/judges after the 1960s as it had in prior years so now the number of cases per judge is much higher than it has ever been, this is also mentioned the season three of Serial podcast which indicts the American criminal justice system for a variety of reasons through the entire process, but both indicate the perverse incentives to avoid trial, it kind of reminded me of the persecution of innocent protagonist in The Count of Monte Cristo simply by having the justice system work the way it was supposed to with just one bad actor condemning the guy to years of injustice.

Re: In Jail Without a Lawyer: How a Texas Town Fails Poor Defendants

#317
post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s a fair opinion, but 28 out of 50 states voted otherwise. If you want to change that then talk to your state’s congresscritters. Just remember that there are plenty of terrible lawyers out there who did pass the bar, and plenty of terrible judges who were once terrible lawyers. A degree is ultimately just a piece of paper (or parchment, if they went to a fancy school). It’s not a guarantee that they’ll be any g…

> A degree is ultimately just a piece of paper Would you be comfortable visiting a doctor who didn't have their "piece of paper"? Obviously a degree is not a guarantee of skill or knowledge. No one is saying it is. However, a degree is a very strong indicator that the person is above some minimum level of knowledge. The counterpoint of "there are shitty lawyers with degrees" is ridiculous. Remove the requirements and…

Yes. The primary purpose of occupational licensing is to reduce the number of people who can participate in the occupation. Test doctors and judges and hair stylists alike based on whether they can do the job, not whether they have a piece of paper. Thousands of judges in 28 states are doing the job just fine even though they haven’t got that piece of paper. Requiring them to get one isn’t going to fix any problems.

Re: In Jail Without a Lawyer: How a Texas Town Fails Poor Defendants

#318
post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if you're facing sexual assault charges (and a lifetime on the sex offender registry) for allegedly peeing in a park People repeat this anecdote all the time, but I'd challenge you to find a single person who has ever been put on the sex offender registry for nothing more than public urination. (Let alone being charged with sexual assault, which is nonsensical -- look up how that crime is defined in US law.)

Tarrant County. Mentally ill but competent to stand trial. I’m sure there’s more than one. Source: 1 year in lockup (solitary) with them, often criminal trespass or public urination charges.

Not sure what you mean. Are you referring to a specific case?

Re: In Jail Without a Lawyer: How a Texas Town Fails Poor Defendants

#319

Anyone who has ever dealt with the US justice system as just some regular bloke knows it is broken. 90% of it is about extorting the population for funding for the courts and cops. If you can't afford a lawyer, they will provide you with a joke. And if you can afford a lawyer, now its just a question if you are willing to spend more on your lawyer than the state is hoping to extort from you. If you are, you will get…

Agreed. There is an assumption that all the Sheriffs and judges are good, while in the south, and Pennsylvania, this was shown not to be the case. In the south, it was a sheriff who was jailing kids, and in Pennsylvania it was a judge who put kids in jail for a kickback.

In Southern California a family law judge was actually censured for putting deceased people's real property on his name. He retired with full pension.

I would like to cite this, but my cell phone search engine and small screen prevent it.

Anyone here who keeps chiming in about a specific case... Please use Google... West Law and Lexis are available for free at most law libraries.

I want names, dates, case summaries, court locations, judgement summaries, contact information. For both parties.etc..etc...etc.

Re: In Jail Without a Lawyer: How a Texas Town Fails Poor Defendants

#320

Anyone who has ever dealt with the US justice system as just some regular bloke knows it is broken. 90% of it is about extorting the population for funding for the courts and cops. If you can't afford a lawyer, they will provide you with a joke. And if you can afford a lawyer, now its just a question if you are willing to spend more on your lawyer than the state is hoping to extort from you. If you are, you will get…

I have a bigger conceptual problem with the workflow of: 1. The police are looking for someone. They arrest you, a second, different person. 2. They determine you are not the person they were looking for. 3. They bill you for their time.

We once had a purse stolen out of a car (our bad, shouldn't have been left out there, and we left the car unlocked, total fuckup on our part).

A credit card from it was used twice at a gas station (cameras galore) that is not near anything—except it's the last gas station on the route to the local, rural-located (little other reason to be out there) Amazon distribution center. We lived in a typical dead-end shitty suburban neighborhood where nobody ever passes through who doesn't live there, except delivery drivers. It was an Amazon delivery driver who stole it, I'm not even Sherlock Holmes and I figured that out in about two minutes with one CC statement and a Maps search.

The cops took a report, didn't give a fuck about the fact that it'd almost certainly take take comically little work to catch the perp and informed us they didn't intend to even try, then... fucking charged us for a copy of the police report we needed for the CC companies.

Definitely didn't feel protected, and only "served" in the sense of "you got served!"

I can only assume resistance to the "defund the police" movement comes entirely from people who've never dealt with them. Ok, our issue was pretty minor, sure it was about the easiest damn case to investigate in all of history but they only have so many people—but I've got a half-dozen other stories like that, from employers, relatives, and friends, and they're all the same, even with much bigger-ticket and serial(!) thefts. They're completely useless, the amount I'm happy to pay them unless they significantly improve is zero dollars. That's before even factoring in their fucked-up "warrior culture", normalized rampant civil rights violations, and lots of murders. Like, putting aside the abuse, they're just goddamn useless at their supposed primary function.

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