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The top 10% owns 87% of the stocks

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Re: The top 10% owns 87% of the stocks

#311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Revolutions can happen if enough people show up. Massive amounts of people are difficult to deal with. Smaller groups you can outright kill in daylight, but better to get to them first to torture and kill them out of sight. Once you need to kill 500.000 who are protesting and if violence to quell the hoards wakes up more people who want to see the regime fail.

Belarus had 500.000 people show up. But they got beat down. Hong Kong had millions of people show up. But it just led to massive crackdowns. Numbers mean nothing when the guys who own the guns are not on your side.

> Numbers mean nothing when the guys who own the guns are not on your side.

Not saying it will turn out differently, but there are more guns circulating in the US than there are people. Nearly everyone has or can easily get access to a gun. US culture is also quite a bit different, celebrating violence, don't tread on me, etc...

Again, it might not make a difference, but I'm not sure those other situations are comparable.

Something else to note is that military officers swear an oath the constitution, not POTUS (like enlisted do). Asking someone to order or to shoot fellow Americans, particularly if unarmed, would definitely be a test. If something like that did happen, we would be entering a second civil war.

Re: The top 10% owns 87% of the stocks

#312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Laborer coordination and workforce strikes.

How very Marxist. How have those Marxist governments fared in the past?

> How very Marxist. How have those Marxist governments fared in the past?

One lasted about 70 years, turned a country from "agrarian" to "beat the USA to Earth orbit, put landers on the moon and Venus first, roughly equal nuclear capabilities".

The other big one went from "agrarian" to "makes most of your smartphones, e-readers, etc."

But more than that, if your standard for "marxist" is "Laborer coordination and workforce strikes", then the UK, France, and Germany are currently also Marxist. The UK and France brings the number of permanent UN security council members who are "Marxist" to 3 (not 4, because Russia doesn't have those things today), and those plus Germany are the economic backbone of western Europe.

Also India. They've got two different Communist parties, the split being because one wanted to be more Marxist than the other: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_India_(Marx... vs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_India — but by the standard you use here, the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_National_Congress is also "Marxist", which will probably annoy all three parties for different reasons. Anyway, they also went from "agrarian" (when they kicked my parents' and grandparents' generations out) to "nuclear powered, industrialised, have a space program".

Re: The top 10% owns 87% of the stocks

#313
post #309
post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What's always missing to me in these types of discussions is what this value should be at, and what the distribution should look like qualitatively (i.e. what should the ideal Lorenz curve look like). Just looking "more uniform" would be a great starting point. The optimal distribution is left as an open question for future research. Not having the perfect solution upfront should not block incremental improvements,…

> The optimal distribution is left as an open question for future research. What makes you think the optimal distribution is "more uniform" rather than less? I'm not taking sides in this question, simply pointing out that the headline is rather meaningless without context

What makes democracy fairer than absolute monarchy? You can't bet on the benevolence of the one (or few) for the prosperity of a society.

Re: The top 10% owns 87% of the stocks

#314
post #31

I think about this from time to time and I suppose everything is cyclical in the end. Most of us would have been some peasant in the feudal age and when it gets really bad it always ends in a revolution of some sort. It's just on a global scale and timeframe now. As more of the population feels the effects of inequality they won't appeased by just fancy toys and shiny things, they will want change by force. My only s…

It’s different this time around. The sheer complexity of society makes it hard to ascertain exactly the true nature of the situation. People who voted for trump aren’t even aware he’s part of the problem of wealth inequality. They aren’t even aware wealth inequality is the problem. At worst we will get an angry mob stampeding the White House with no real direction or objective. Are rich people the problem or is it th…

> They aren’t even aware wealth inequality is the problem.

"Wealth inequality" in the sense that there are several billion people and the net worth of each and every one of them is not exactly the same? That can't be it.

"Wealth inequality is increasing over time" seems like it could be a bad thing, but if that's the problem then what's the cause? Let's consider how that happens:

When you buy something for $100, part of that money goes to labor (the employees who made or distributed it etc.) and part goes to capital (the investors who own the company). Employees generally spend all of their income, so that's not an issue. As it turns out, so do most investors, by population count, because most businesses are small businesses. The owner of the local salon might be getting a dividend from the place but she's using that to buy groceries.

Then there's Larry Ellison. Screw that guy, am I right? Somehow that asshole has more money than it would take to buy the entirety of Boeing with enough left over to buy General Motors and Halliburton put together. And he's not spending it fast enough to make the number go down instead of up.

But wait, how did that happen? He definitely didn't end up with $200B by investing $100 in the Dow and letting it compound for 50 years.

His company did, however, get billions of dollars in government contracts and in general makes its money by selling copyright licenses to its 50 year old database software. In fact, if you look at the list of companies minting all of these billionaires, they're almost all tech companies, relying on a government-granted copyright monopoly that originally expired after 14 years.

And if you look at the ones that aren't tech, they're drug companies (another government-granted monopoly and an industry that has thoroughly captured the regulators) and finance companies (possibly the only industry with more regulatory capture than medicine).

From this we can notice a trend. You get billionaires when the laws impair competition in their industry and the industry consolidates into megacorps. So that's the cause. That's what you need to prevent.

Re: The top 10% owns 87% of the stocks

#315
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The population might not be happy, but they don't have the means to change it. Revolutions don't happen when people are mad, they happen when the ones who can afford armies and equipment sense the possibility of coming out on top. 250 years ago George Washington could have financed the entire Revolutionary War out of his own pocket and he still would have retained two thirds of his wealth. Instead he put the losses o…

> 250 years ago George Washington His wealth was mainly in very illiquid land. A lot of it was near worthless unless US won the war since it was beyond the line drawn by the Royal Proclamation of 1763 and white settlers were generally banned from settling there. Otherwise like many landholders back in the day he was semi-broke and had limited access to cash. Of course after the war of course he was both compensated f…

Historically soldiers have been just as happy to be paid in land as they were in cash.

Owning people is the easiest way to become wealthy. Owning land is the second-easiest.

Re: The top 10% owns 87% of the stocks

#316

Sincere question about communism: Let's say hypothetically that the distribution of stock ownership was more even across the population, and variance was largely (but not completely) due to length of time in the workforce. And further, that the stock owned by workers is a large enough block that they effectively have controlling shares at many companies. Maybe I'm talking about a different universe, but please imagin…

It's like communism, but it's not communism, at least it's not the ultimate form of communism. IMHO, the key difference is that in communist theory, the workers own the means of production through a worker-class-ruled society, not as individuals, and it's still within the framework of a market-oriented economic system.

why don't work?

first, when equity dispersion is accompanied by the dispersion of decision-making power, it can lead to excessively high decision-making costs, reduced efficiency, and lack of competitiveness. However, when equity is dispersed but decision-making power is concentrated (i.e., a dual-class share structure), the interested parties with decision-making power tend to skew the benefits towards themselves.

it's not compatitalbe with the market-oriented economic system.

second, "Altruistic collectivization" is entropy-increasing.

For example, if a company does what you said, when a crisis occurs, it's hard for it to survive. Its products may fail to be sold, and the company may go bankrupt. Other companies can also go bankrupt, but their failure is part of the capitalist system. When they fail, the system as a whole doesn't necessarily fail. But when a "communist-style" company fails, it dies, and it won't come back easily.

More importantly, this is a world dominated by capitalism. It's not just an ideology of companies, it's an ideology of states. For example, when the IMF/WHO comes to a country that is suffering from a global capitalist economic crisis, the IMF will kindly offer its help, but with some conditions, such as requiring you to also accept its help in reforming your economic system.

Although there are still some similar commercial entities that are "owned" collectively, most of them are stagnant. They can survive, but they cannot expand.

Re: The top 10% owns 87% of the stocks

#317
post #175

In any kind of non-uniform distribution of any good, the top x % will always own a disproportionate (wrt to headcount) amount of it (In economic systems, this mathematical fact is further amplified by other factors such as financial literacy and leverage). What's always missing to me in these types of discussions is what this value should be at, and what the distribution should look like qualitatively (i.e. what shou…

I personally think we should resist the temptation to separate out values from the discussion. Like, even if it was the case that some extremely high-level of inequality turned out to be "optimal" in some GDP-maximizing way, the question still ought to hinge on some notion of fairness or justice (in my view). (Although, I guess if your metric is "citizen satisfaction" maybe that's not as terrible). In any case, there…

I haven't read the examples you mentioned, do they point toward the source of the instability being extreme inequality, or the lower (economic) classes being unable to survive in dignified conditions? (read: can we tolerate great inequality if it comes with increased standards of living for everyone?)

Re: The top 10% owns 87% of the stocks

#318
post #313
post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The optimal distribution is left as an open question for future research. What makes you think the optimal distribution is "more uniform" rather than less? I'm not taking sides in this question, simply pointing out that the headline is rather meaningless without context

What makes democracy fairer than absolute monarchy? You can't bet on the benevolence of the one (or few) for the prosperity of a society.

What is "fair" is a complicated question (and i'm not sure what this question has to do with my comment)

Re: The top 10% owns 87% of the stocks

#320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How very Marxist. How have those Marxist governments fared in the past?

How's China's Marxist-Leninist society working out right now? Last I checked their economy was on pace to grow larger than the US.

You think China's economy runs on Marxist-Leninist ideas? It's capitalism with authoritarian characteristics.
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