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The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

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Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#311

Post by aleph_minus_one »

Semaphor wrote: post #299
badsectoracula wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This already happened for smartphones. Sadly even in tech many people do not seem to see smartphones as real computers.

Not GP, and don’t have their patience anyway. But while I see them as real computers, they aren’t any that I enjoy using, so I care relatively little for them.

> But while I see them as real computers, they aren’t any that I enjoy using, so I care relatively little for them.

If you/people were brutally willing to crack them open, the "enjoyability" of using them for "hacker-minded people" could be improved insanely.

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#312

Post by devops99 »

likeabatterycar wrote: post #33
stackghost wrote: post #2

>The FSF's focus on TPMs here is not only technically wrong, it's indicative of a failure to understand what's actually happening in the industry. This sounds 100% on-brand for the FSF. The FSF's primary public-facing persona has peculiar computing habits so far removed from the mainstream that it's likely he has absolutely no clue how the real world works. In fact by his own statement he has to rely on volunteers to…

The FSF has turned into the crazy old aunt that insists you unplug the coffee pot after use in case it's bugged. It's taken me a long time to come around to the reality that they are holding Linux back at every juncture, probably still salty over the GNU/drama. Modern TPM support in Linux and systemD now permits automatic disk unlock for LUKS encrypted volumes using a key stored in the TPM - some ~15 years after Wind…

> there is no standardisation in connectors, pinout, or bus type when it's not soldered onto the board. I have three motherboards with plug-in TPMs and each required a different, unique part that was difficult to source.

This should be prohibited by commercial law.

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#313

Post by kbolino »

_yb2s wrote: post #281
Mindwipe wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The GPU still has no unique hardware private key, right? GPU's have had unique hardware private keys and secure memory for a decade.

How does the remote streaming server know a key is an authentic hardware GPU that hasn't been compromised, and not something you just generated in software, to enable software level decryption of the media? It seems like you'd need some central SSL like certificate authority to verify and revoke credentials that were universally implemented in the same way by all GPU manufacturers.... surely there is no such thing?

At least for HDCP, that's exactly how it works. From the HDCP 2.2 spec [1]:

> Device Key Set. An HDCP Receiver has a Device Key Set, which consists of its corresponding Device Secret Keys along with the associated Public Key Certificate.

> Public Key Certificate. Each HDCP Receiver is issued a Public Key Certificate signed by DCP LLC, and contains the Receiver ID and RSA public key corresponding to the HDCP Receiver.

> The top-level HDCP Transmitter checks to see if the Receiver ID of the connected device is found in the revocation list.

[1]: https://www.digital-cp.com/sites/default/files/specification...

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#314

Post by talldayo »

stackghost wrote: post #277
talldayo wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Indeed, because free software development is largely driven by ideological purity rather than feature parity. Ideological purity is a valuable thing. Look at Minix, hell, even look at the BSDs today. These are projects that have collapsed because of their feature obsession and ignorance of ideology. The differentiation of ideology is what makes free software uniquely successful - it is the feature. > Mainstream use…

>You are the guy lambasting Gallileo, and when Gallileo asks you why heliocentrism offends you, you are replying "because the mainstream clergy sees you as kooks." I'm lambasting the people who think this fictional Galileo is a good public persona to lead their political movement, because this Galileo can't convince anyone of anything because he is almost entirely devoid of the skills one needs to advance a political…

> I know lots of people who understand what free software is and choose to make a living selling proprietary software.

That's not what I asked you, though. Do those same people defend Microsoft and Google and Apple's business strategies? Do they respect what the apex of proprietary software looks like, replete with advertising, data collection, vaporware promises, removed features, integrated spyware and mandatory junk fees? Unless your friends are an LLM, I suspect they don't, because they've been burned before and know better. As no serious economist promotes laissez faire economics in the 21st century, laissez faire software is not healthy for humans either. The abuses are right in front of us, and the blame is simple to dole out.

It's for your own good that you stop replying to my comments if you're going to twist my words and avoid the topic. Free software isn't bound by the pragmatic demands of a market, and yes, that means that it can fail, but it can also end up displacing entire product categories as well. Anyone familiar with the past 3 decades of computing history knows this to be an irrevocable and proven fact. We would not be having this conversation on the internet if proprietary networking standards prevailed over open ones.

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#315

Post by rustcleaner »

mike_hearn wrote: post #173
ignoramous wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The author is correct in that media DRM is tied to GPU vendors on the field right now ... hardware backed DRM can be so much more invasive I expect mjg59 to know what they're talking about but like you say, I wonder the same thing about the strength of (what you call) Media DRM v Hardware-backed DRM. GPU vendors have quietly deployed [hardware-based DRM] ... [which] works just fine on [boards] that [don't] have a T…

No, the GPUs have their own hardware RoT that measures the firmware. Modern GPUs are basically parallel computers with their own RAM, bootup sequence, BIOS, operating systems (drivers and firmware together are basically an OS), compiler toolchains, debuggers, sub-drivers and so on.

One which needs to be opened to users/owners instead of locked away. A price-doubling 100% sales tax on Universal Machines which lock owners out like with video cards (and their firmware), should make products which are not fundamentally significantly GNU-ideals friendy unaffordable to the average consumer (and therefore not economically viable anymore). Siemens can still sell their $5MM machine for $10MM to BASF or whatever, because BASF can afford to borrow double to pay the tax, but Cletus and Dorothy will not be buying sony playstations and apple iphones because $2,000+ isn't worth it.

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#316

Post by _yb2s »

kbolino wrote: post #313
_yb2s wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does the remote streaming server know a key is an authentic hardware GPU that hasn't been compromised, and not something you just generated in software, to enable software level decryption of the media? It seems like you'd need some central SSL like certificate authority to verify and revoke credentials that were universally implemented in the same way by all GPU manufacturers.... surely there is no such thing?

At least for HDCP, that's exactly how it works. From the HDCP 2.2 spec [1]: > Device Key Set. An HDCP Receiver has a Device Key Set, which consists of its corresponding Device Secret Keys along with the associated Public Key Certificate. > Public Key Certificate. Each HDCP Receiver is issued a Public Key Certificate signed by DCP LLC, and contains the Receiver ID and RSA public key corresponding to the HDCP Receiver.…

Thanks, that clarifies my confusion about how this could be realistically implemented. I couldn't see a practical way to verify every device on every connection via a central authority without massive scaling and reliability issues, but maintaining a small revocation list that can be cached everywhere media is distributed from seems quite practical.

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#317

Post by Rohansi »

watermelon0 wrote: post #155
Rohansi wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Requiring TPM can actually benefit multiplayer video games because it introduces a secure way to identify hardware being used by cheaters. Right now everything being used by games is easily spoofed by cheats so cheaters just need to get a new account to continue cheating after being banned.

Such restrictions usually mean that you can't play games via Windows VM or on Linux directly. Additionally, there are cheats using video capture cards, which cannot practically be prevented.

Anti-cheat software is usually blocking playing in VMs or on Linux anyway.

Some monitors [1] have cheats like that built in now, too. They are much more limited than what cheats do today because they only have access to information visible on your screen (can't see other players through walls).

[1] https://www.tomshardware.com/monitors/msis-ai-powered-gaming...

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#318

Post by talldayo »

stackghost wrote: post #28
zb3 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People in power and people with money are who you need to convince..

Eating junk from your toenails on camera doesn't convince those people either.

Nor has rational discussion, either.

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#319

Post by rustcleaner »

MadnessASAP wrote: post #4

I have to wonder A) What does DRM realistically accomplish for the media companies? And, B) How are these DRM schemes actually being defeated? I do occasionally don my pirate hat* and have never had an issue finding what I want at the quality I want within an hour of a episode/movie being released to streaming. That would seem to indicate that these efforts at DRM are actually failing to have any noticeable effect at…

DRM is the camel-nose of a worldwide technocratic North Korean-style digital future.

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#320

Post by stonogo »

TacticalCoder wrote: post #301
no_time wrote: post #143

The author is correct in that media DRM is tied to GPU vendors on the field right now. But hardware backed DRM can be so much more invasive beyond that. I have no doubts the long term goal of MS is to have a Windows version of Play Integrity.[0] So total control over everything that happens on your device. Just to give an example of what could happen if this becomes reality: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_Enviro…

> the future for personal computing is looking grim I don't know. They could lock up the hardware stack as much as they want, in the end it's pixels being pushed to arrays. It's extremely hard to prevent these pixels from being intercepted. You'll have pirate groups just going deep in the hardware (opening the monitors and soldering and hacking and whatnots) and eventually tap these. As for personal usage: I've got h…

The issue isn't preventing piracy, it is defending GPU market segmentation. In the old days you could flash Quadro firmware to Geforce cards and unlock features or modify clocks. The common thread is artificial scarcity.
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