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Everyone is capable of, and can benefit from, mathematical thinking

quantamagazine.org

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Re: Everyone is capable of, and can benefit from, mathematical thinking

#311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm the author of what you've just described as clickbait. Interestingly, the 100m metaphor is extensively discussed in my book, where I explain why it should rather lead to the exact opposite of your conclusion. The situation with math isn't that there's a bunch of people who run under 10s. It's more like the best people run in 1 nanosecond, while the majority of the population never gets to the finish line. Highly-…

> document the secret "oral tradition" of top mathematician > A good number of Abel prize winners & Fields medallists have read my book and found it important and accurate. It's been blurbed by Steve Strogatz and Terry Tao. Sounds like people mostly living in different bubbles? What do they know about the world? They aren't hanging out with the kids who fail in school because maths and reading and writing is to hard,…

> Sounds like people mostly living in different bubbles? What do they know about the world?

Well, they do know something about math — in particular that it requires a certain "attitude", something that no-one told them about in school and they felt they only discovered by chance.

Starting from Descartes and his famous "method", continuing with Newton, Einstein, Grothendieck all these guys insisted that they were special because of this "attitude" and not because of what people call "intelligence". They viewed intelligence as a by-product of their method, not the other way around. They even wrote books as an attempt to share this method (which is quite hard to achieve, for reasons I explain in my book.)

Why do you bring "kids who fail in school" and "start selling drugs" into this conversation? What does it have to do with whether math genius is driven by genetics or idiosyncratic cognitive development?

And why would a mathematician be disqualified from discussing the specifics of math just because they're not hanging out with lost kids? Are you better qualified? Did you sequence the DNA of those kids and identified the genes responsible for their learning difficulties?

>> [they] don't think it's because of their genes

> Do you think someone would tell you, if he/she thought it was?

Well, an example I know quite well is mine. I was certainly "gifted" in math — something like in the top 1% of my generation, but not much above and definitely nowhere near the IMO gold medallists whom I met early in my studies.

A number of random events happened to me, including the chance discovery of certain ways to mentally engage with mathematical objects. This propelled me onto an entirely different trajectory, and I ended up solving tough conjectures & publishing in Inventiones & Annals of Math (an entirely different planet from the top 1% I started from)

My relative position wrt my peer group went through a series of well-delineated spikes from 17yo (when I started as an undergrad) to 35yo (when I quit academia), associated with specific methodological & psychological breakthroughs. I'm pretty confident that my genes stayed the same during this entire period.

And as to why I was initially "gifted", I do have some very plausible non-genetic factors that might be the explanation.

I don't claim this proves anything. But I see no reason why my account should be disqualified on the grounds that I'm good at math.

Usually, competency in one domain is presumed to make you a bit more qualified than the random person on the internet when it comes to explaining how this domain operates. Why should math be the exception?

Re: Everyone is capable of, and can benefit from, mathematical thinking

#312
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not really. There's nothing inherently special about people who dedicated enough time to learn a subject. "You didn't work hard enough." People really blame you for that, not for lacking talent. > So far in human history there were less than 200 people who ran 100m in less than 10s. And many millions have tried. There may be 200 people who can run it under 10s, but there are thousands that can run it under 11s, and…

I'm the author of what you've just described as clickbait. Interestingly, the 100m metaphor is extensively discussed in my book, where I explain why it should rather lead to the exact opposite of your conclusion. The situation with math isn't that there's a bunch of people who run under 10s. It's more like the best people run in 1 nanosecond, while the majority of the population never gets to the finish line. Highly-…

> In other words: the people who run the mathematical 100m in under a second don't think it's because of their genes.

Sure they don't. Most extremely successful people (want to) think that the main reason of their success is their commitment and hard work. It runs completely contrary to the findings of modern biology and psychology, most of our intellectual potential at adulthood is genetic.

The floor and ceiling you will operate on in your life is decided the moment of chromosomal crossover.

Re: Everyone is capable of, and can benefit from, mathematical thinking

#314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm an adult who's been programming computers professionally for 20 years, and went to school for it, and I've lost most mathematical skills past what I'd learned by 6th grade or so, from lack of use. People who aren't even working in a field that's STEM-adjacent have even less use for stuff past simple algebra and geometry (the latter mainly useful just for crafting hobbies and home-improvement projects) and a handf…

Do you play any games that require mathematical reasoning? You might realize you are using integration without calling it integration i.e. calculating expected values.

Maybe. I also do a lot of complex math when I throw a ball.

Weirdly, accurately throwing a ball never got me a good grade on a math test.

Re: Everyone is capable of, and can benefit from, mathematical thinking

#315
post #197

Reading most of the answers here, I can only conclude most of you were home schooled or went to some fancy schools for gifted children. An average human is unable to even write properly. Even basic mathematical operations like multiplication and division are too complicated from their perspective.

Not sure about schools for gifted, but I think lots of people here a bit live in bubbles.

Maybe industrialized countries, a bit better off neighborhoods, STEM classes in high school, and then university? (Not everyone but ... Most here?)

Re: Everyone is capable of, and can benefit from, mathematical thinking

#316
post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your statement is not backed up by data and simply wishing it should happen isn’t a strong argument. You probably have a narrow definition of “most people” (probably some motivated high school or undergraduate student) and too loose with what it means to “understand mathematical concepts abstractly”. Take an analogy: imagine professional musicians saying that most people should be able to take a piece of music and un…

Where's the data backing up what you said? >You probably have a narrow definition of “most people” (probably some motivated high school or undergraduate student) I was thinking "3-4 out of 5 people you pick on the street at random". >too loose with what it means to “understand mathematical concepts abstractly”. Enough that they could recognize whether a mathematical concept is applied correctly (e.g. if I have a 2% m…

> Where's the data backing up what you said?

What he is saying is the default hypothesis based on our understanding of biology and psychology. If you have variability in genes you'll get variability in characteristics that are connected to them - height, bone structure, mental capacity, etc.

It is on you to prove that there is an arbitrary cut-off when it comes to this variance from which point it doesn't matter in regards to e.g. cognitive and mathematical ability.

> Enough that they could recognize whether a mathematical concept is applied correctly (e.g. if I have a 2% monthly interest, should I multiply it by 12 to get the annual interest? Why, or why not?) and conversely to correctly apply concepts they already understand to new situations, as well as to leverage those concepts to potentially learn new ones that depend on them.

No it doesn't if they do not have the abilities to comprehend it. I think you're living in a bubble of at least average-smart people and don't get that probably millions if not billions of people around the globe (based on average IQs) won't really get that concept.

Re: Everyone is capable of, and can benefit from, mathematical thinking

#317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you really are confused. You are mistakenly equating "non-primarily genetic" with "easily teachable". The story is much more complex than "if it's not genetic then everybody should get it". It's quite cruel to assume that if you don't get math today you'll never get it, and there are tons of documented counter-examples of kids who didn't get it at all who end up becoming way above average. If you think that D…

[flagged]

The evidence of your confusion is that you cited one sentence in their comment but ignored the next sentence which provide the justification in abstract for that sentence. Therefore your basic reading comprehension skills are confused. It easier to disagree vigorously but when you do that it clouds your analytic ability to follow the actual arguments given in that way.

Re: Everyone is capable of, and can benefit from, mathematical thinking

#318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you really are confused. You are mistakenly equating "non-primarily genetic" with "easily teachable". The story is much more complex than "if it's not genetic then everybody should get it". It's quite cruel to assume that if you don't get math today you'll never get it, and there are tons of documented counter-examples of kids who didn't get it at all who end up becoming way above average. If you think that D…

[flagged]

When you write a comment here, you're talking not simply (or even primarily) to the person you're responding to, but also to the rest of the community. Have you considered what value there might be, or not be, in a comment like this?

We are extraordinarily fortunate to be taken seriously enough as a community for the primary sources on stories like this to come talk to us directly. I'd ask, as a neighbor of yours in this community, that you not (rhetorically) chase those people away.

Thanks!

Re: Everyone is capable of, and can benefit from, mathematical thinking

#319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

When you write a comment here, you're talking not simply (or even primarily) to the person you're responding to, but also to the rest of the community. Have you considered what value there might be, or not be, in a comment like this? We are extraordinarily fortunate to be taken seriously enough as a community for the primary sources on stories like this to come talk to us directly. I'd ask, as a neighbor of yours in…

That's a fair ask, that post was not one of my better moments. As much as I dislike the rhetorical tactic wielded with "everyone who doesn't agree with me is simply confused", a one-sentence tell off does nothing to counter it, and just makes me look like a jerk. Which I was.

Re: Everyone is capable of, and can benefit from, mathematical thinking

#320
post #197

Reading most of the answers here, I can only conclude most of you were home schooled or went to some fancy schools for gifted children. An average human is unable to even write properly. Even basic mathematical operations like multiplication and division are too complicated from their perspective.

God that's one of the most pessimistic views of humanity I've seen on the web, and I'm pretty pessimistic. Developed nations have a 99.2% literacy rate per wikipedia. 69% of OECD students meet "level 2" mathematical proficiency (https://www.oecd.org/en/topics/sub-issues/mathematics-litera...), which indicates an understanding above the basic mathematical operators like multiplication and division.

FWIW I did not go to any fancy school, I was educated in the state system.

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