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Niantic plans a “Large Geospatial Model” trained on Pokémon Go player data

nianticlabs.com

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Re: Niantic plans a “Large Geospatial Model” trained on Pokémon Go player data

#311
post #303
post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The humor isn’t recognized because the humor isn’t there. To be funny there has to be a setup, a punchline, some kinda joke structure. Humor isn’t just saying false things… Imagine a comedian saying this on stage, how many laughs would that get? > Do people really think MyFitnessPal is trying to build a model of the average pantry? We’ve all seen dumber things that are real. Juicero is my personal favorite example.

The humor is attained afterwards when one reads the comments who take it seriously, they become the punchline. That completes the circuit. It's a nice setup.

Except we're living in a world where it wouldn't be that surprising, especially after reading this post. Good idea of a joke but bad execution.

Re: Niantic plans a “Large Geospatial Model” trained on Pokémon Go player data

#312
post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I feel … I have been tricked Everything “free” coming from a company means they’ve found a way to monetise you in some way. The big long ToS we all casually accept without reading says so too. Other random examples which appear free but aren’t: using a search engine, using the browser that comes with your phone, instagram, YouTube… etc. It’s not always about data collection, sometimes it’s platform lock-in, or some…

only a sith speaks in absolute. plenty of especially free AI products out there

No such thing as a free lunch.

Re: Niantic plans a “Large Geospatial Model” trained on Pokémon Go player data

#313
Going to try to clear this up from speculation as best I can.

Niantic was a spinoff divested from Google Maps roughly a decade ago who created a game called Ingress. This used Open Street Maps data to place players in the real world and they could designate locations as points of interest (POI), which Niantic used human moderators to judge as sufficiently noteworthy. Two years after Ingress was released, Niantic purchased limited rights to use Pokemon IP and bootstrapped Pokemon Go from this POI data. Individual points of interest became Pokestops and Gyms. Players had to physically go to these locations and they could receive in-game items needed to continue playing or battle other Pokemon.

From the beginning, Pokemon Go had AR support, but it was gimmicky and not widely used. Players would post photos of the real world with Pokemon overlaid and then turn it off, as it was a significant battery drain and only slowed down your ability to farm in-game items. The game itself has always been a grind type of game. Play as much as possible to catch Pokemon, spin Pokestops, and you get rewards from doing so. Eventually, Niantic started having raids as the only way to catch legendary Pokemon. These were multiplayer in-person events that happened at prescribed times. A timer starts in the game and players have to be at the same place at the same time to play together to battle a legendary Pokemon, and if they defeat it, they'll be rewarded with a chance to catch one.

Something like a year after raids were released, Niantic released research tasks as a way to catch mythical Pokemon. These required you to complete various in-game tasks, including visiting specific places. Much later than this, these research tasks started to include visiting designated Pokestops and taking video footage, from a large enough variety of angles to satisfy the game, and then uploading that. They started doing this something like four or five years ago, and getting any usable data out of it must have required an enormous amount of human curation, which was largely volunteer effort from players themselves who moderated the uploads. The game itself would give you credit simply for having the camera on while moving around enough, and it was fairly popular to simply videotape the sidewalk and the running game had no way to tell this was not really footage of the POI.

The quality of this data has always been limited. Saying they've managed to build local models of about 1 million individual objects leaves me wondering what the rate of success is. They've had hundreds of millions of players scanning presumably hundreds of millions of POI for half a decade. But a lot of the POI no longer exist. Many of them didn't exist even when Pokemon Go was released. Players are incentivized to have as many POI near them as possible because this provides the only way to actually play, and Niantic is incentivized to leave as much as they can in the game and continually add more POI because, otherwise, nobody will play. The mechanics of the game have always made it tremendously imbalanced in that living near the center of a large city with many qualifying locations results in rich, rewarding gameplay, whereas living out in the suburbs or a rural area means you have little to do and no hope of ever gaining the points that city players can get.

This means many scans are of objects that aren't there. Near me, this includes murals that have long been painted over, monuments to confederate heroes that were removed during Black Lives Matter furors of recent years, small pieces of art like metal sculptures and a mailbox decorated to look like Spongebob that simply are not there any more for one reason or another, but the POI persist in the database anyway. Live scans will show something very different from the original photo that still shows up in-game to tell you what the POI is.

Another problem is many POI can't be scanned from all sides. They're behind fences, closed off because of construction, or otherwise obstructed.

Yet another problem is GPS drift. I live near downtown Dallas right now, but when the game started, I lived smack dab in the city center, across the street from AT&T headquarters. I started playing as something to do when walking during rehab from spine surgeries, but I was often bedridden and couldn't actually leave the apartment. No problem. I could receive sometimes upwards of 50km a day of credit for walking simply by leaving my phone turned on with the game open. As satellite line of sight is continually obstructed and then unobstructed by all the tall buildings surrounding your actual location, your position on the map will jump around. The game has a built-in speed limit meant to prevent people from playing while driving, and if you jump too fast, you won't get credit, but as long as the jumps in location are small enough to keep your average over some sampling interval below that limit, you're good to go. Positions within a city center where most of the POI actually are is very poor.

They claim here that they have images from "all times of day," which is possibly true if they literally mean daylight hours. I'm awake here writing this comment at 2:30 AM and have always been a very early riser. I stopped playing this game last summer, but when I still played, it was mostly in darkness, and one of the reason I quit was the frustration of constantly being given research tasks I could not possibly complete because the game would reject scans made in the dark.

Finally, POI in Ingress and Pokemon Go are all man-made objects. Whatever they're able to get out of this would be trained on nothing from the natural world.

Ultimately, I'm interested in how many POI the entire map actually has globally and what proportion the 1 million they've managed to build working local models of represents. Seemingly, it has to be objects that (1) still exist, (2) are sufficiently unobstructed from all sides, and (3) in a place free from GPS obstructions such that the location of players on the map is itself accurate.

That isn't nothing, but I'm enormously skeptical that they can use this to build what they're promising here, a fully generalizable model that a robot could use to navigate arbitrary locations globally, as opposed to something that can navigate fairly flat city peripheries and suburbs during daylight hours. If Meta can really get a large enough number of people to wear sunglasses with always-on cameras on them, this kind of data will eventually exist, but I highly doubt what Niantic has right now is enough.

Re: Niantic plans a “Large Geospatial Model” trained on Pokémon Go player data

#314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Niantic was clear about the product of the labor: In exchange for swiping the PokeStop, you'd get the rewards. No one was ever told they'd get more than that, and no one had any reasonable expectation that they'd get more.

Exactly! Everyone thought that the exchange was them doing something in the game, and Niantic was giving them the rewards in the game, and no one had any reasonable expectation that Niantic would get more outside of the game. (After all, neither Blizzard or Square get anything when one completes quest objectives in their MMO.) So obviously, now that Niantic is getting things outside the game its reasonable the people…

> So obviously, now that Niantic is getting things outside the game its reasonable the people who did the work ask for something from that.

Absolutely not.

If you are compensated for doing something, you can’t suddenly come back for more 5 years later because it was used as part of something bigger which is now making money.

I have little sympathy for the players here. If you are voluntarily doing free work for worthless virtual things, you can’t come complaining when it dawns on you that it might have been dumb from the start (and to be fair maybe it wasn’t and they did it because it was fun which is completely ok).

I guess we could ban in game shop and game reward for real work as they are somehow predatory but that would be a bit paternalistic.

Re: Niantic plans a “Large Geospatial Model” trained on Pokémon Go player data

#315

I'm confused by both this blog post, and the reception on HN. They... didn't actually train the model. This is an announcement of a plan! They don't actually know if it'll even work. They announced that they "trained over 50 million neural networks," but not that they've trained this neural network: the other networks appear to just have been things they were doing anyway (i.e. the "Virtual Positioning Systems"). The…

“Concepts of a plan” is often enough to make people think you know what you’re doing. Think most people, here included, got the impression that they had succeeded already.

And I get that; one thing that (I think) especially software developers have is a high level knowledge of many different subjects, to the point where IF they ever have to do something in practice, they'll know enough to figure it out. T-shaped people kinda thing.

Re: Niantic plans a “Large Geospatial Model” trained on Pokémon Go player data

#316
post #285
post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I feel … I have been tricked Everything “free” coming from a company means they’ve found a way to monetise you in some way. The big long ToS we all casually accept without reading says so too. Other random examples which appear free but aren’t: using a search engine, using the browser that comes with your phone, instagram, YouTube… etc. It’s not always about data collection, sometimes it’s platform lock-in, or some…

Hiding shady or unexpected stuff in the TOS is illegal in the EU and other countries for example. So just because some companies behave amoral, that doesn’t mean we just have to accept hundreds of pages of legalese being able to dictate us.

Niantic have never made a secret of the fact that they're crowdsourcing to enrich their mapping data (eg data from Wayfarer and Ingress was used to seed Pokemon Go and Wizards Unite). I can't see it as a sudden gotcha, as it's practically their USP.

Re: Niantic plans a “Large Geospatial Model” trained on Pokémon Go player data

#317

I'm confused by both this blog post, and the reception on HN. They... didn't actually train the model. This is an announcement of a plan! They don't actually know if it'll even work. They announced that they "trained over 50 million neural networks," but not that they've trained this neural network: the other networks appear to just have been things they were doing anyway (i.e. the "Virtual Positioning Systems"). The…

They have never been a mobile game company and they have said as much themselves on many occasions. They're a data harvesting company. Guess now they're trying to figure out what to do with all of that data.

From what I've heard only the minority of the company works on the games. The rest does 'research'.

Re: Niantic plans a “Large Geospatial Model” trained on Pokémon Go player data

#318
post #20

This is pretty cool, but I feel as a pokehunter (Pokemon Go player), I have been tricked into working to contribute training data so that they can profit off my labor. How? They consistently incentivize you to scan pokestops (physical locations) through "research tasks" and give you some useful items as rewards. The effort is usually much more significant than what you get in return, so I have stopped doing it. It's…

> I have been tricked into working to contribute training data so that they can profit off my labor You were playing a game without paying for it. How did you imagine they were making money without pimping your data?

In this case it's the other way around. Pokemon Go is profitable and funds the rest of Niantic, this AI innitiative included (for now).

(I'm not saying that they shouldn't use the game data for training.)

Re: Niantic plans a “Large Geospatial Model” trained on Pokémon Go player data

#319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't feel tricked. Still don't. They were pretty up-front about it bring a technology demo for a game engine they were building. It was obvious from the start that they would build future games on the same platform.

Right? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here and on Lemmy, the whole point of ingress was that it was made to sell Google mapping data and point of interest data, that's why the game didn't have monetizing practices for so long (of course it started having them once all the data was sold but hey)

I'm with you and the previous commenter. People who feel "tricked" we're only fooled by their own blindness. Sorry, but then trying to garner sympathy for that is like being asked to feel bad for the stripper that takes her clothes off for money; they both 100% knew what they were getting into and no other reasonable expectations can be had from engaging in that situation.

Facebook has been around something like a decade, now? I forget the exact number, but it's been long enough that everyone should have learned their lesson at this point; if you are creating data, be it personal, geospatial or otherwise, by using a product expect that data to be used as a commodity by the makes of said product.

Re: Niantic plans a “Large Geospatial Model” trained on Pokémon Go player data

#320

I'm confused by both this blog post, and the reception on HN. They... didn't actually train the model. This is an announcement of a plan! They don't actually know if it'll even work. They announced that they "trained over 50 million neural networks," but not that they've trained this neural network: the other networks appear to just have been things they were doing anyway (i.e. the "Virtual Positioning Systems"). The…

They have never been a mobile game company and they have said as much themselves on many occasions. They're a data harvesting company. Guess now they're trying to figure out what to do with all of that data.

> They're a data harvesting company.

I didn't realize this. I used to submit so many "portals" to ingress T_T

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