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A Dust Over India

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Re: A Dust Over India

#311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I humbly offer that if you travel halfway around the world and still eat at an American chain restaurant, your judgment of foreign culture is irrelevant. Nonsense. For all we know, he ate there once. Homesickness is a common experience for travellers in a very different culture.

The idea that Mr. Manson's heart is brought back home by a visit to Pizza Hut is even more damning to his credibility! But seriously, he sounds like another lazy, judgmental tourist.

What would convince you that this is not true?

I remember going to McDonalds when I was traveling in Spain and feeling homesick and annoyed that everyone was on siesta. I guess I'm just a bad tourist?

Re: A Dust Over India

#312

Oh Jesus Christ... Not another one of these posts. Guys, why do you write posts like this knowing the end result? Someone brings to light an obvious flaw in someone else's country, people from that country feel like it's a direct attack on them and come up with bullshit excuses, the bullshit annoys people and the whole conversation spirals into denials, "I'm not in denial"s, "what about your _____"s, and "that's not…

I think you are doing the Indian readership of HN a mild dis-service here. Most here acknowledge the issues raised by the Author. We do feel hurt by his conclusion, summed up as: "The whole country sucks", but well..things are what they are.

As several readers have already stated, institutionalized corruption is the bane of India today and no visible improvement is possible unless we tackle and eliminate this first. But the political class and bureaucracy would never allow this to happen.

Our "Lokpal" bill - the anti-corruption bill that that was fought for by a popular activist with a hunger strike has now been in-definitely postponed by the current coalition government. Due to a series of elementary media-mismanagement blunders, the activist team lost the massive support they initially had and the political class were quick and clever to capitalize on these mistakes, perform character assassination, and sucessfully shoot down the Lokpal bill along with it.

Most people I know are highly upset at this - many have even lost hope and given up change as a lost cause in India. We had the whole of India massively mobilized and firmly behind an anti-corruption drive for some months before the activist team got a 'god' complex and attempted to re-direct this support into their personal, pet agendas - one guy on his Kashmir stance, another on his anti-alcoholic drive, another attempting to re-direct funds into his pet charity, etc. They broke one fundamental rule of politics: never give your political opponents juicy targets to shoot ammunition at. In politics, if you are going against the norm, you are going to be heavily scrutinized. You need to be lily-white if you want a chance to change things with people power.

The Indian middle class were dismayed at several of these relevations and though people could swallow some of them, it become too much to eventually swallow and the movement lost enough steam that the politicians and bureaucracy have now put this bill indefinitely on the backburner - possibly never to see the light again.

The LokPal bill was something originally raised in the 1960's btw.

I no longer believe that it is possible to affect any meaningful and lasting change in Indian society without revolution - which would lead to its own separate set of problems. Sure, you can donate a few years to charity and helping NGO's will will do some trickle of good - a few scattered moments of goodness in the vast, apathetic darkness and that's about the limit.

Re: A Dust Over India

#313

Oh Jesus Christ... Not another one of these posts. Guys, why do you write posts like this knowing the end result? Someone brings to light an obvious flaw in someone else's country, people from that country feel like it's a direct attack on them and come up with bullshit excuses, the bullshit annoys people and the whole conversation spirals into denials, "I'm not in denial"s, "what about your _____"s, and "that's not…

[deleted]

Re: A Dust Over India

#316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that Mr. Manson's heart is brought back home by a visit to Pizza Hut is even more damning to his credibility! But seriously, he sounds like another lazy, judgmental tourist.

What would convince you that this is not true? I remember going to McDonalds when I was traveling in Spain and feeling homesick and annoyed that everyone was on siesta. I guess I'm just a bad tourist?

Tourism != traveling

Tourists should keep their judgments to themselves. Traveling is about immersing yourself in the local culture, tourism is about observing it from a safe distance -- i.e. touring.

Making deep conclusions about the people of another culture while traveling around in hotels, eating at Pizza Hut (okay, just once!) and hopping around between tourist attractions and ashrams designed specifically to attract white people is like me trying to figure out if you would beat your wife, just by looking at your face. There is no correlation.

Re: A Dust Over India

#317
post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

India was a bunch of smaller countries before John Company came along and conquered it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_India_Company

This is the common ploy by the English to hide all their doings in the name of doing the 'greater good'. Mainland India has been largely united throughout many 1000's of years throughout history.

Not realy there have been large States that covered a substatial part of what is niow India but never one that covered the entire subcontinent in the way that the Raj did.

Re: A Dust Over India

#318
For a westerner, the easiest way to understand is Caste = Corruption.

For e.g.

    1. If you kill somebody, you should be **hanged**, if you're NOT from my caste.
    2. If you kill somebody, you did it in **self-defense**, if you're from my caste.

Re: A Dust Over India

#319

Oh Jesus Christ... Not another one of these posts. Guys, why do you write posts like this knowing the end result? Someone brings to light an obvious flaw in someone else's country, people from that country feel like it's a direct attack on them and come up with bullshit excuses, the bullshit annoys people and the whole conversation spirals into denials, "I'm not in denial"s, "what about your _____"s, and "that's not…

I think you are doing the Indian readership of HN a mild dis-service here. Most here acknowledge the issues raised by the Author. We do feel hurt by his conclusion, summed up as: "The whole country sucks", but well..things are what they are. As several readers have already stated, institutionalized corruption is the bane of India today and no visible improvement is possible unless we tackle and eliminate this first.…

I am from Bulgaria. Every country has its flaws. If this article was about Bulgaria. I myself would feel a bit hurt. I would immediately try to lesson the blow of some of the arguments and accusations.

And just for the record, I'm being brutally honest about my own home country. India with all its problems has much more of a future than Bulgaria does. Bulgaria's population is shrinking, business is shrinking, villages are shrinking. Every 5 years we go back and see how things have shrunk, life is a bit harder, and corruption shows it's head in more places. Each year Bulgarian businesses have less potential customers. At least in India everything is growing, things are incrementally getting better.

My whole argument is that the author writing posts like this is not going to change anything or do anything productive or constructive. It's just going to hurt feelings without creating action. It's a useless article for Indians because it's not encouraging, has no call to action, and just plain hurts. In fact reading his article just makes me want to stay away from India. Honestly, India was one of the places I wanted to visit in the next 10 years. After reading that and mentally combining it with all the other "I went to India and was shocked and disappointed" articles it makes me want to avoid the country altogether for the next 30 years.

Everyone's country has shit. But if you're going to talk about the shit in Country_X. Equally talk about the flowers too. Otherwise the people living in that shit have their motivation and drive to make it better taken away. And others are given an overly negative view of Country_X.

Re: A Dust Over India

#320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd argue that this "jugaad" happens everywhere when people are under extreme pressure and have no good expectations of getting anywhere following the rules. Here in Brazil there are lots of young people that gets into drug dealing just because they don't have nothing better to do. The grow up in extreme poverty and society would very much like them to be dead or in prision, so they take their chances... sometimes it…

I would say you're off slightly. I think it's basically improvising very frugally to make stuff work when it should've been close to impossible. It can be dangerous, It can hurt others, selfish or just plain useful, but there's no way you can deny the ingenuity. Here're some awesome examples of jugaad: https://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/559248_35987216408... http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3231/2389399780_7e7c1…

This is an universal trait of people trying to cope with limits. I've always know it as "ingenio mexicano" or "mexicanada", roughly translated as mexican wit. It is a matter of national pride and accepted wisdom that nowhere in the world people are as cleaver as we are.

See some examples at: http://quependejadas.com/tag/gracioso/page/2/

The most amazing thing is that most of these images are probably not Mexican at all, but stolen from redneck sites (search for: Look, I fixed it). That is 100% in character with the spirit of mexicanada. Why actually fix anything when I can find someone else who did it and steal the credit!!!

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