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Marine pilot loses command after ejecting from F-35B that kept flying

marinecorpstimes.com

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Re: Marine pilot loses command after ejecting from F-35B that kept flying

#311

Post by decremental »

adastra22 wrote: post #268
the5avage wrote: post #251

> The investigation report said the F-35′s transponder failed as a result of the electrical malfunction So there is serious electrical malfunction and the pilot loses communication and also some of his displays multiple times. In hindsight we know it wasn't that serious and the plane could have kept flying. But how can the pilot figure that out, while flying the aircraft? One needs to evaluate decisions based on the…

> But how can the pilot figure that out, while flying the aircraft? Looking out the window.

[dead]

Re: Marine pilot loses command after ejecting from F-35B that kept flying

#312

Post by dotancohen »

ExoticPearTree wrote: post #306
dotancohen wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A stimulator comfortably positioned at FL000 is much more amenable to troubleshooting multiple electrical failures than a tin can balancing on computer-controlled thrust differentiating, 1900 feet in the air well below stall speed.

You are missing the point. Incidents do happen, but you just don't get to fly a fighter jet until you proved in a simulator that you are capable of flying it and troubleshooting it. What the simulator does is to see if you can be entrusted with the aircraft.

Yes, but decades of experience have shown that pilots are far braver and willing to risk their skin in a simulator than they are in the air. And for good reason.

Re: Marine pilot loses command after ejecting from F-35B that kept flying

#313

Post by adastra22 »

stavros wrote: post #277
adastra22 wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But how can the pilot figure that out, while flying the aircraft? Looking out the window.

So you're in a thing going close to the speed of sound, the thing starts malfunctioning, you look out the window, think "ahh the weather is nice, therefore the machine will probably not kill me" and keep flying? How does that thought process go?

Pilots are trained to fly without instruments. Even in inclement weather conditions.

Re: Marine pilot loses command after ejecting from F-35B that kept flying

#314

Post by cwillu »

close04 wrote: post #296
rightbyte wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When an user reports buggy or glitchy behaviour I usually don't write it off as cowardice. I had the same problem in the auto industry. Some times the test drivers were accused of imagining things or sabotaging when the problem could not be recreated.

When your software crashes in a house it hopefully doesn't kill the whole family. Comparing the expectations from a pilot and squadron commander to a random user of a random software doesn't do any favors to the pilot and suggests you misunderstand the magnitude of the difference. Even in the follow-up anecdote from the auto industry, a car test driver has vastly different profile than this pilot. They inherently wor…

He compared it to test drivers reporting faults in automotive software, not random software running on a pc.

Re: Marine pilot loses command after ejecting from F-35B that kept flying

#315

Post by lupusreal »

NitpickLawyer wrote: post #220
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> its not like flying planes is a new phenomenom. Why were the procedures still bad after all this time? It’s a new plane! Also, a pilot blaming procedure for a bad call is ass covering. That’s not appropriate for a mission critical role.

> Also, a pilot blaming procedure for a bad call is ass covering. Huh, is that a specific thing for military pilots? Just watched the latest MentourPilot's video and there the french equivalent of the FAA found that the pilots were told to improvise too much, and should have followed the procedures better. Isn't this a catch22 with hindsight based judgement?

The prime rule, which supersedes all others, is to not have shit go wrong. That's more important than following any of the other rules; if you follow all the other rules, the rules which you think are important because they're written down, but miss on the prime rule, then your ass is in trouble. Even if it doesn't end your career, it will still hurt it.

When things really matter the foremost objective is never "follow the rules so your ass is covered", it's to not have a situation where that ass covering is relevant in the first place. Outcomes matter more than preforming according to the book.

Re: Marine pilot loses command after ejecting from F-35B that kept flying

#316

Post by Teever »

dotancohen wrote: post #289
elcritch wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I read that seems plausible given the pilot was a seasoned test pilot; so it seems odd he was just being panicky. Imagine just being struck by lightning, loosing main displays, and being at 1200 feet. All on top of flying in a plane with a reputation for electronic failures. I'd be concerned too that the plane was about to freak out. 1200 ft isn't far.

2000 hours isn't all that seasoned, and he had less than 50 hours in that type. He was accomplished all right, but not what one would call seasoned. In fact, the root of the word "seasoned" means "prepared" and he clearly was not prepared for the events leading to this incident. That through no fault of his own, hence he was not formally disciplined. The Marines expect someone of his position to perform above and bey…

Why are people in other threads saying that he was some sort of expert or that he lost an expert position because of this?

Re: Marine pilot loses command after ejecting from F-35B that kept flying

#317

Post by close04 »

adastra22 wrote: post #313
stavros wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're in a thing going close to the speed of sound, the thing starts malfunctioning, you look out the window, think "ahh the weather is nice, therefore the machine will probably not kill me" and keep flying? How does that thought process go?

Pilots are trained to fly without instruments. Even in inclement weather conditions.

> the report said its standby flight display and backup communication system “remained basically functional.”

Just to be clear, the pilot had the backup instruments available and functional, and the plane could be substantially controlled (i.e. could be pointed in the pilot's desired direction).

People are using feelings rather than facts to judge this pilot. So they do it differently then they would for example a police or SWAT team member shooting the wrong person under pressure. The same actions would have been judged very differently if chance hadn't kept that plane from crashing into a populated area.

Re: Marine pilot loses command after ejecting from F-35B that kept flying

#318

Post by kaliqt »

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #223
KennyBlanken wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This and the fact that he didn't make the slightest attempt to work around it. He had a flyable plane with plenty of fuel, a functioning backup radio and instruments he could have verified primaries against or just switched to, and even failing everything else, he could have verified against what the tower saw on radar for speed, heading, altitude, etc...and then asked the tower to get him to his wingman, and then fo…

There's a story of a fighter pilot, flying on instruments on a rainy night, who noticed his altimeter was reading level, artificial horizon level, but his speed was climbing even with the throttle steady. He immediately pulled the ejection handle, having correctly deduced that both altimeter and artificial horizon were were broken and he was plummeting towards the Atlantic. The plane impacted a few seconds later. Dif…

While those cases do certainly exist, this was not the case here, he had time to troubleshoot and determine if his backup instruments were working or not.

Re: Marine pilot loses command after ejecting from F-35B that kept flying

#319

Post by kaliqt »

afruitpie wrote: post #239
ics wrote: post #57

Brief summary and my understanding of why this occurred: - Pilot ejects, survives while losing very expensive plane - The crash is Marine's third in several weeks, the other two having fatalities; leads to a safety stand down across the entire corps - Investigation concludes that ejection was unnecessary and so fault of the crash is on the pilot, however adding that the procedures written were overly broad - Pilot is…

> The crash is Marine's third in several weeks Should be “the Marines’ third.” I don’t mean to be a stickler, but for a moment I thought this one pilot was crashing a plane a week!

That would be hilarious if it were the case.

Re: Marine pilot loses command after ejecting from F-35B that kept flying

#320

Post by izacus »

db48x wrote: post #139
mmooss wrote: post #77

Has this become a politicized, viral, ideology thing? I keep seeing this story pop up in several places, but it doesn't seem like its impact merits the attention. I'm not trolling and please don't bring the politics and ideology here. I am asking factually. (I'm here because I prefer to avoid those things and as a result can be ignorant of them.)

It’s possible. But note that there has been a lot of criticism of the F–35 since the inception of the program because it’s a multi–role fighter–bomber jack–of–all–trades that tries to satisfy everybody. Partly this is a political problem. Combat airplanes are expensive to design and need political approval. So you have to get every branch of the military to sign on to the project simultaneously, otherwise you’ll neve…

A lot of that criticism ended up being quite muted after the plane ended up being wildly successful after being put into service. It also ended up being much cheaper than the competition for many of allies that bought it as well.

Not to say that there weren't many issues with the program, but it seems like a lot of those requirements panned out.

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