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Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

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Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#311

Post by harshreality »

wpm wrote: post #264
MikeAmelung wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The next day, the police searched the Buick LeSabre and found the Post-Dispatch ruler and calculator belonging to Gayle. The police also recovered the laptop computer from Glenn Roberts. The laptop was identified as the one stolen from Gayle's residence." https://law.justia.com/cases/missouri/supreme-court/2003/sc-...

Circumstantial. There are a 1000 different ways he could have obtained those items without committing a murder. Prove that having them is proof positive he killed someone.

I don't think there are 1000 different ways to get both a ruler and a laptop that belonged to the same murder victim.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#312

Post by dropin685 »

blcknight wrote: post #20
nemo44x wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was all considered by the state Supreme Court. Due process was invoked and after numerous reviews at every level no court found anything to retry or reverse the case. My personal take - of course he was guilty as unrelated people recounted confessions he made to them that included details that were never made public. And the property findings. Saying that I’m not sure killing people is the greatest thing.

> unrelated people recounted confessions he made to them that included details that were never made public Do you have a source? "The case against Mr. Williams turned on the testimony of two unreliable witnesses who were incentivized by promises of leniency in their own pending criminal cases and reward money. The investigation had gone cold until a jail inmate named Henry Cole, a man with a lengthy record, claimed t…

> " [...] neither revealed any information that was not either included in media accounts about the case or already known to the police. "

My brain is short-circuiting over the two parts of this snippet from The Innocence Project. Presumably both are intended to suggest unreliable individuals and an unjust guilty verdict, but I find a mismatch between the two. It's one thing to suppose the individuals revealed some details that were featured in media accounts. But it's quite a different thing to suppose the individuals revealed some details that were known only to police. The former point is of no consequence, but the latter point, if true, supports the reliability of the individuals and the guilt of the accused.

Not that I support the death penalty anyway. But I'm leaning toward nemo44x's personal take mentioned above. And the snippet was presumably written to coax us that the man was innocent. Am I missing something? They seem like weasel words, as another poster put it. :(

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#313

Post by seadan83 »

MisterBastahrd wrote: post #306
seadan83 wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then you're also okay with me choosing the bias of a prosecutor prosecuting you?

Who, exactly, gets to choose how unbiased the prosecutor is? You won't get that from a democratic election and you won't get that from elected officials choosing them.

My question is sincere. If the upstream comment wants to choose bias, then a "yes" answer to my question would be a consistent position and interesting if sincerely answered that way.

To your question, a priori bias would be hard to evaluate. Post facto there would be some data and perhaps some metrics that could be used. It would less be "who", but "how."

Prosecutor bias is a bit nebulous though. Prosecutors should be honest and present the best case possible, met with the best defense possible. The best defense being a function of wealth rather than a consistent standard is damning. But I quickly digress...

I would be interested to have my original question answered.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#314

Post by diogenes_atx »

lolinder wrote: post #308
diogenes_atx wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

If the ruler and calculator in fact belonged to the victim that is an important clarification of your "the police did not find the victim's property in Williams' car", and your reaction is unnecessarily dismissive. Just acknowledge the error and move on, no need for sarcastic defensiveness.

Even if the police were able to establish that the ruler and calculator belonged to the victim, it is merely circumstantial evidence. It does not prove Williams was the killer.

Here is a quick summary of the main issues: (1) There is no reliable evidence that Williams is guilty of the crime; (2) The DNA evidence from the crime scene does not match Williams; (3) Numerous legal experts, including St. Louis County Prosecuting Attorney Wesley Bell, argued convincingly that Williams' death sentence should have been commuted to life in prison, at a minimum; (4) A Republican governor ignored the facts and legal opinions and simply murdered Williams.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#315

Post by seadan83 »

blendergeek wrote: post #305
seadan83 wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But I can't reach the certainty I'd want for the death penalty There is a degree of certainty required for a conviction. It is up to the jury to only decide if that degree of certainty has been reached. It is up to the judge to determine the sentence. I make this point as the US justice system is set up explicitly so that the jury is not considering the sentencing, but only guilty or not guilty. This removes the ro…

In Missouri (as in most US States with capital punishment), the death penalty must separately be approved by the jury after the jury convicts. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_the_Un...

Interesting! Thank you for the additional information.

Would it be fair to call this an aberration in the US justice system? Namely that except for death penalty cases, that my previous comment holds? I generally viewed that distinction of guilt finding vs punishment selection as fundamental. This is food for thought -thank you.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#316

Post by lolinder »

diogenes_atx wrote: post #314
lolinder wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the ruler and calculator in fact belonged to the victim that is an important clarification of your "the police did not find the victim's property in Williams' car", and your reaction is unnecessarily dismissive. Just acknowledge the error and move on, no need for sarcastic defensiveness.

Even if the police were able to establish that the ruler and calculator belonged to the victim, it is merely circumstantial evidence. It does not prove Williams was the killer. Here is a quick summary of the main issues: (1) There is no reliable evidence that Williams is guilty of the crime; (2) The DNA evidence from the crime scene does not match Williams; (3) Numerous legal experts, including St. Louis County Prose…

> Even if the police were able to establish that the ruler and calculator belonged to the victim, it is merely circumstantial evidence. It does not prove Williams was the killer.

I agree. You were still wrong in ways that do matter. Acknowledging it gracefully makes your case stronger, not weaker.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#317

Post by pie_flavor »

haswell wrote: post #254
pie_flavor wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The justice system wasn't presented with any new evidence. Some DNA from the prosecution's office ended up on the weapon sometime in the preceding 17 years, big whoop. This isn't exculpatory and doesn't contradict a single claim made by the prosecution, and there was plenty of strong evidence that he did it, such as possessing all the victim's stuff and pawning her laptop and bragging about how he did it in words tha…

> there was plenty of strong evidence that he did it, such as possessing all the victim's stuff and pawning her laptop This should not be sufficient to justify the death penalty. Whether or not this guy did it, using such an incredibly weak standard will and almost certainly has killed innocent people. > This is the Innocence Project's standard beat. They attempt to free a lot of convicts…whose conviction was based o…

[flagged]

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#318

Post by koenigdavidmj »

istjohn wrote: post #250

If we aren't going to abolish the death penalty, we should at least require a higher standard of proof than beyond a reasonable doubt to carry it out. It should require incontrovertible proof. Circumstantial evidence should not be allowed. Expert testimony should be barred. The evidence must be conclusive, plain, and certain to every member of the jury. This would allow you to execute, e.g., mass shooters who give th…

We don’t use the word reasonable anymore the way it was written originally, and the actual meaning is what you’re asking for, except for every conviction, not just capital ones. It doesn’t mean “a small but tolerable level of doubt”. It means doubt backed by reason. “Aliens made me do it” is doubt that is not backed by reason. “There is another plausible way that conforms to the evidence given that he came to possess that laptop” is reasonable doubt.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#319

Post by Hasu »

seadan83 wrote: post #278
Hasu wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If prosecutors are going to be biased either way, I'd prefer a choice in those biases.

Then you're also okay with me choosing the bias of a prosecutor prosecuting you?

No, that's silly and not at all the same thing as a prosecutor being accountable to the electorate as a whole. The entire point is that I don't trust one person, or a small group of people, to pick someone who is "unbiased". I don't trust the electorate as a whole either, but I trust them more than elected officials.

Only three states in the US have appointed, rather than elected, district attorneys. The United States Attorney General is an appointed position, and we've seen in recent administrations how it can be corrupted quite easily.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#320

Post by maximinus_thrax »

ImJamal wrote: post #222
alistairSH wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s not the way our justice system is supposed to work. We don’t require proof of innocence. We require (or are supposed to require) proof beyond a reasonable doubt of guilt. Possessing stolen goods should not proof beyond a reasonable doubt of murder.

He openly admitted to multiple people he killed her and had her property in his possession. Do you think that it was impossible to have burden of proof prior to DNA or something? Who admits to killing somebody while having their property in their possession if they didn't do it? The average person would probably accept just admitting it multiple times to be beyond a reasonable doubt, but adding on the possession of t…

No, some witnesses testified that he allegedly confessed. This is called hearsay. There is an exception to hearsay when it comes to confessions and that's the reason the testimony was admitted during the trial. A hearsay confession is very different than a confession made to the public, the police, the prosecutor, in court or during a deposition. The witnesses received benefits from their testimonies and this again leads to reasonable doubt.

> The average person would probably accept just admitting it multiple times to be beyond a reasonable doubt

How can you be so sure the confessions actually happened?

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