How America's universities became debt factories • Hacker News Board

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#311

Post by luckylion » Sat, Sep 14, 2024, 9:23 PM UTC

magnoliakobus wrote: post #86

robertlagrant wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Say you major in comp sci (or some other high-paying field) but shortly after graduation something happens which prevents you from working in the field. Sucks to be you. That's why the article's saying you should be able to declare bankruptcy. > And likewise it sets up universities to, as you say, "cut courses with poor returns." Like for example "teaching", because school teacher pay is crap, so it has a poor ROI.…

I think most people would agree with me in saying the European model sounds pretty swell compared to forcing people into declaring bankruptcy because of economic/personal factors potentially out of their control, while also inserting an incredible amount of volatility into the entire university system that would make long term institutional planning much less possible.

Many will agree, but that's part of the reason why the US has a 50% higher GDP with 30% lower population. Focusing on well-beeing, fun and experience comes at a price.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#312

Post by rainsford » Sat, Sep 14, 2024, 9:23 PM UTC

pc86 wrote: post #250

ayewo wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Your parents should've taught you those things, and if they didn't do that they failed you. Please be charitable. Your comment is unnecessarily mean. Unless you know the commenter personally, I don't think anyone can diagnose the commenter's upbringing from a single Internet comment.

I don't think they're referring to GP and his/her parents specifically. Until very, very recently, it was well accepted that there were a lot of things it your parents' responsibility to teach you. Expecting parents to teach their children things is not even remotely mean or unreasonable.

But objecting to schools teaching things in the event that parents don't is unreasonable because it punishes the child for their parents not living up to expectations. And on the particular topic of this thread, it punishes all of us because it's generally detrimental to society for people to take on massive un-serviceable debt due to a lack of financial education.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#313

Post by BurningFrog » Sat, Sep 14, 2024, 9:29 PM UTC

labcomputer wrote: post #305

zozbot234 wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's worth noting, by the way, that the United States has a shortage of medical doctors. That's a pipeline problem. What the U.S. actually has is a severe bottleneck in available places at medical schools and for residency training.

That’s only because doctors collude to limit the number of available residency places. I programmers were smart, they would: 1. Lobby the government to prohibit anyone from practicing programming without a license. 2. Limit the number of licenses granted each year

Fortunately, we don't have the social skills to make that happen.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#314

Post by paulcole » Sat, Sep 14, 2024, 9:30 PM UTC

Izikiel43 wrote: post #233

paulcole wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I took out around $20k in loans to study literature starting in 2001. Graduated in 2005. Rent was $150 a month. Played a lot of poker and disc golf. Studied and learned a bit. Had a 75% scholarship to help with tuition. Had a $300/semester book stipend as part of that and just bought penny books off Amazon (one of the benefits of an English degree) and pocketed the difference. Basically for 5-8% or so of my (estimate…

20 years to pay 20k$?

Not 20 years. Payment doesn’t start until graduation.

Also, why not take as long as possible to pay it off at 1.5%?

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#315

Post by Telemakhos » Sat, Sep 14, 2024, 9:31 PM UTC

lapcat wrote: post #247

zozbot234 wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The bulk of education debt in the U.S. is not about undergrad degrees in English literature or the like. By and large, it gets incurred either for lucrative postgrad degrees (MBA, law, medical etc.) or for earning degrees at "non-traditional" for-profit colleges.

You're correct except for one word: "lucrative". To this day, almost two decades after I left my philosophy PhD program (without a PhD), I still have massive student loan debt. Even if I had completed my degree, though, philosophy PhDs aren't particularly lucrative. Tenured professors at major universities do ok, but the road to getting tenure-track jobs and then tenure is littered with the bodies of grad students. I…

> I left my philosophy PhD program (without a PhD), I still have massive student loan debt

In humanities fields, if the department thinks you belong in the program, they pay you to attend. They'll give you fellowships, TAships, and RAships. If they don't give you those, they're telling you not to attend. This is a harsh truth.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#316

Post by downrightmike » Sat, Sep 14, 2024, 9:33 PM UTC

zozbot234 wrote: post #259

lapcat wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're correct except for one word: "lucrative". To this day, almost two decades after I left my philosophy PhD program (without a PhD), I still have massive student loan debt. Even if I had completed my degree, though, philosophy PhDs aren't particularly lucrative. Tenured professors at major universities do ok, but the road to getting tenure-track jobs and then tenure is littered with the bodies of grad students. I…

> It's worth noting, by the way, that the United States has a shortage of medical doctors. That's a pipeline problem. What the U.S. actually has is a severe bottleneck in available places at medical schools and for residency training.

It isn't a problem, it is a feature the AMA wants to have.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#317

Post by TechDebtDevin » Sat, Sep 14, 2024, 9:34 PM UTC

seizethecheese wrote: post #308

The premise that 17 year olds cannot make this kind of decision seems widely accepted here. Yet, I remember clearly understanding that since I was paying for college with debt, I must study engineering. Perhaps college has expanded to select too many people? I wonder if this could be solve by simply restricting college admissions to 20% of graduating seniors.

This is how "cultural revolutions" begin

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#318

Post by downrightmike » Sat, Sep 14, 2024, 9:34 PM UTC

SamuelAdams wrote: post #125

> Make student loans dischargeable in bankruptcy again. I would like to see the author back this up with more considerations. Bankruptcy disappears from all credit reports after seven years. The average age of first time home buyers is 35. So if a new grad’s credit is trashed from the age of 23-30, it makes no difference to them - they are not planning on using credit for anything substantial anyways. What is going t…

At this point, all students should on principals alone default and bankrupt. The system is rigged and is actively hurting people.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#319

Post by BurningFrog » Sat, Sep 14, 2024, 9:35 PM UTC

tway_GdBRwW wrote: post #48

mchusma wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But…the whole point is that it is NOT a market. If student debt is dischargeable and the government guarantee is removed or dramatically reduced, pretty much all problems are “solved”. Universities will have to start focusing on ROI. Universities that provide a poor ROI will shut down. Universities will need to reduce costs for traditional coursework, cut courses with poor returns, add courses with higher returns. Th…

> Universities will have to start focusing on ROI. In Europe, they have a simpler system. Education is paid for from taxes. If a student does well, they pay for it via taxes. If they don't, then they aren't crippled by debt. The problem with the ROI approach is it still places too much burden on the student, and, well, life happens. Say you major in comp sci (or some other high-paying field) but shortly after graduat…

> In Europe, they have a simpler system

Europe does NOT have an education system!

The ~50 different European countries all have their own systems, with huge differences between them.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#320

Post by sofixa » Sat, Sep 14, 2024, 9:36 PM UTC

dukeyukey wrote: post #168

sofixa wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would imagine in Europe they select more carefully the students whom will go to College. Here in the US we've told students that everyone must go to College You imagine wrong. Pretty much everyone goes to university in most and European countries. Even in wildly tourist dependent places, a degree in tourism is a normal thing for a young person to pursue before going to work at hotels/restaurants.

It's actually less than half for the EU as a whole - https://erudera.com/news/statistics-show-41-of-eu-youngsters...

The absurdly low numbers for Romania and Hungary make me think that people leaving to study abroad fall through the cracks in these stats.