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Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

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Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#311

Post by noirbot »

jemmyw wrote: post #268
tiffanyh wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s interesting is that it’s common for governments to give tax incentives to companies that will result in driving more economic value for their region. Eg Ireland might give a tax incentive if a large Fortune 500 company hires X people in Ireland. Question: does this ruling prohibit that common practice?

Kind of. It's already prohibited, depending on what you mean. It would be legal to say all companies can have a tax break if they hire X people in Ireland. It's not legal to give the tax break to one company and deny it to another.

It does feel a little weird then that Apple is being fined here then? It seems like Ireland did the thing that's against the rules by offering the deal, not Apple? Obviously they worked on it together, but it feels odd that Ireland has now essentially gotten all the benefits of offering this illegal deal by having Apple do business there and now also gets all the back taxes that Apple probably wouldn't have paid to Ireland if they hadn't gotten the deal.

That seems like a bit of a perverse incentive for countries to offer deals they may know will get overturned later because they'll get the money eventually.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#312

Post by superkuh »

andy_ppp wrote: post #51

It would just be really good if companies stopped avoiding tax. Most countries are already pretty much bankrupt - it's worth thinking about for every debt (US National Debt is $35.35 trillion!!) there is a rich person on the end of it with the loan as an asset earning interest. If companies avoid tax and rich people avoid tax it means more tax for normal people who work for a living.

Taxes don't fund government programs. Taxes are a way to mitigate the buying power of private capital when it comes to bidding against government for things. Governments just create money supply for programs. It's not tax money. That's just an old cliche.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#313

Post by nolok »

kamikazeturtles wrote: post #175
moomin wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A good way of thinking about the EU is as a solution to the prisoner's dilemma.

Do they tax LVMH? Or fine it for monopolistic practices? The EU is a pretty one-sided solution to the prisoner's dilemma

And you can't bother doing a simple google search ? Their effective tax rate is about 27%, yes.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#314

Post by Detrytus »

sweezyjeezy wrote: post #280
Mordisquitos wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Example: for employed people, going into (or avoiding) debt generally won't affect their yearly wages, but analogously it can for countries While I do agree that personal finances are a bad analogy for state finances, that is not an illustrative example as to the reasons. An employed person can absolutely improve their yearly wage by going into debt, be it for investing in education to aspire to better paying posit…

I did say generally, but fair point :b

Generally, there are two types of debts: consumer debt, which you just spend and the debt you invest in something profit-bringing, like business.

Average people generally only accrue the first kind and rarely the second.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#315

Post by tiffanyh »

noirbot wrote: post #311
jemmyw wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kind of. It's already prohibited, depending on what you mean. It would be legal to say all companies can have a tax break if they hire X people in Ireland. It's not legal to give the tax break to one company and deny it to another.

It does feel a little weird then that Apple is being fined here then? It seems like Ireland did the thing that's against the rules by offering the deal, not Apple? Obviously they worked on it together, but it feels odd that Ireland has now essentially gotten all the benefits of offering this illegal deal by having Apple do business there and now also gets all the back taxes that Apple probably wouldn't have paid to I…

That's exactly why I asked.

If the government approached Apple, to offer them a special (specific to Apple) tax deal in exchange for X ... why is Apple now being held accountable for Ireland doings.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#316

Post by timcederman »

hayd wrote: post #296
ghusto wrote: post #287

> Apple, however, said in a statement: "The European Commission is trying to retroactively change the rules and ignore that, as required by international tax law, our income was already subject to taxes in the US." My understanding is that the U.S.A. double-taxes both corporations operating abroad, as well as it's own expats. If this is true, then it's quite the remark to say _the country you're actually in_ is the o…

Expats aren’t double taxed but you need to file tax returns to offset taxable income that’s already been taxed. There are specific agreements to avoid double taxation but it’s unclear/unlikely the IRS are just going to hand back money Apple already paid (it likely falls outside of what’s required in those international agreements). Companies, and people, make decisions based on the tax laws of the day eg deciding to…

Expats are absolutely double taxed, just less so (and to be clear - majority cases not at all) when a DTA is in effect.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#317

Post by BadHumans »

superkuh wrote: post #312
andy_ppp wrote: post #51

It would just be really good if companies stopped avoiding tax. Most countries are already pretty much bankrupt - it's worth thinking about for every debt (US National Debt is $35.35 trillion!!) there is a rich person on the end of it with the loan as an asset earning interest. If companies avoid tax and rich people avoid tax it means more tax for normal people who work for a living.

Taxes don't fund government programs. Taxes are a way to mitigate the buying power of private capital when it comes to bidding against government for things. Governments just create money supply for programs. It's not tax money. That's just an old cliche.

Need a citation or some reading for this because it sounds like something you believe without cause.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#318

Post by noirbot »

kwhitefoot wrote: post #206
freefaler wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand the ruling however, something doesn't make sense: - Apple goes to a country and makes a deal with that country - They pay the tax in the country and they comply with all the rules at that time in Ireland - After a few years the EU government says "hey, Ireland that's not a correct deal" - So they don't punish the Ireland government who didn't comply with EU regulation (as far as I understood) and r…

They aren't being punished, they are simply being told to pay the tax that Ireland illegally said they didn't have to pay.

That's a distinction without a difference. Presumably, if Ireland hadn't offered this deal, Apple would have done their business somewhere else. Sure, they may have paid some other country more taxes, but potentially less taxes than what they now owe Ireland.

Apple isn't blameless here, but it definitely kinda feels like they got a little bit defrauded by the Irish government who now essentially is getting rewarded with billions of dollars for their illegal conduct.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#319

Post by dmurray »

noirbot wrote: post #311
jemmyw wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kind of. It's already prohibited, depending on what you mean. It would be legal to say all companies can have a tax break if they hire X people in Ireland. It's not legal to give the tax break to one company and deny it to another.

It does feel a little weird then that Apple is being fined here then? It seems like Ireland did the thing that's against the rules by offering the deal, not Apple? Obviously they worked on it together, but it feels odd that Ireland has now essentially gotten all the benefits of offering this illegal deal by having Apple do business there and now also gets all the back taxes that Apple probably wouldn't have paid to I…

> it feels odd that Ireland has now essentially gotten all the benefits of offering this illegal deal by having Apple do business there and now also gets all the back taxes that Apple probably wouldn't have paid to Ireland if they hadn't gotten the deal.

Yes, there's a widespread view in Ireland that this was the best possible outcome: be seen to fight tooth and nail to prevent collecting the taxes, but get them anyway.

> That seems like a bit of a perverse incentive for countries to offer deals they may know will get overturned later because they'll get the money eventually.

I'm not so sure of this, though. The companies aren't fools and have better paid lawyers than the countries, so they won't enter these deals unless they rate their chances of getting away with it.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#320

Post by BlackFly »

noirbot wrote: post #311
jemmyw wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kind of. It's already prohibited, depending on what you mean. It would be legal to say all companies can have a tax break if they hire X people in Ireland. It's not legal to give the tax break to one company and deny it to another.

It does feel a little weird then that Apple is being fined here then? It seems like Ireland did the thing that's against the rules by offering the deal, not Apple? Obviously they worked on it together, but it feels odd that Ireland has now essentially gotten all the benefits of offering this illegal deal by having Apple do business there and now also gets all the back taxes that Apple probably wouldn't have paid to I…

Sure, Ireland did wrong by insinuating to Apple that they could have special treatment when in fact EU law prohibits it, but Apple failed to pay the prevailing tax rates which can be demanded long after the fact. Ireland has sovereign immunity from tort in this case. They could legislate to waive their immunity for tax assurances which would create an interesting constitutional issue in the EU.
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