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Is a 'slow' swimming pool impeding world records?

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Re: Is a 'slow' swimming pool impeding world records?

#311

Post by pdpi »

samldev wrote: post #5

I was a college swimmer, qualified for Olympic Trials in 2012 and 2016. There are absolutely slow and fast pools. It basically comes down to two things: 1. The depth - which is only 7ft in Paris, unusually shallow for a competition pool. 2. The sides. Does the water spill over the sides into the gutters, or smash into a wall and bounce back, creating more chop. A trained eye can see all the swimmers in Paris struggli…

> at least it generally affects all the swimmers equally

> 2. The sides. Does the water spill over the sides into the gutters, or smash into a wall and bounce back, creating more chop.

My only experience with competitive swimming is playing some water polo some 25 years ago, but wouldn't that effect disproportionately affect the swimmers on the outermost lanes?

Re: Is a 'slow' swimming pool impeding world records?

#312

Post by brk »

lacoolj wrote: post #96

So it's more shallow, which is a problem. Like if you trained for track on pavement vs rubber vs sand, you're going to have different results, even if "everyone has the same environment" not everyone's body will have the same relative response. I don't like that assumption that just because it's the same for everyone means the difference will affect everyone the same. Are France competition pools across the country j…

Considering that the Olympics are supposed to be a test of high caliber athletics, you could argue that the lack of a standard, and the resulting variation, means that the athletes who are most adaptable have an edge. Which doesn't seem bad to me.

Re: Is a 'slow' swimming pool impeding world records?

#313

Post by dredmorbius »

alistairSH wrote: post #292
dredmorbius wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The one aspect which isn't equal at least amongst Olympic and other competitions is that a slower (or faster) pool will generate fewer (or more) records overall. One measure of the current games' bias would be the number of new Olympic and world records set as compared with other events --- prior or subsequent Olympics, and other world-level competitions within the current year, say. I expect the quants at sites such…

Are records generally evenly distributed over time? Or do we see massive spikes due to single generational talents?

The more general tendency that I've seen and which has been noted in articles/studies I'm familiar with is generally technique and technology.

Two examples of technique I'm aware of are the Fosbury Flop (1968) in the high jump, in which the jumper goes backwards over the bar (previously jumpers had gone forwards and feet-first, by 1968 with a sissors step), and heads-down technique in Australian Crawl "freestyle" swimming. Both dramatically improved results.

The Fosbury Flop was enabled by the technological introduction of foam mats on the landing side of the high-jump. Without mats, landing on your back after clearing a 2m+ bar position was somewhat undesirable.

Heads-down stroke in freestyle was in conjunction with freshwater (rather than salt) in swimming pools. Swimming heads-down without goggles in a salt-water pool burns the eyes quite strongly. With freshwater, and acrylic plastic goggles (acrylic being invented in the Great Plastics Boom of the 1930s). I'm not entirely sure when plastic swim goggles became widespread, though it may not have been until the 1970s, and the Montreal Olympics (1976) were the first to permit goggles.

Track generally has also seen tremendous improvements in the track composition (loose cinders to rubberised surface). Swimming pools have hugely reduced wave action through wave-absorbing lane lines, deep gutters, inlet diffusers, and laser-guided construction ensuring accurate and consistent distance.

That's on top of vast improvements in training, other equipment, doping (which has a very long history), professionalisation of sport (including the Olympics), and other factors.

Talent is a component, but the overall phenomenon is highly multidimensional.

Re: Is a 'slow' swimming pool impeding world records?

#315

Post by a_c_s »

bregma wrote: post #114
AtlasBarfed wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's Olympic gold medals on the line. People are going absolutely as hard as they can. There's no way an Olympic pool for the actual Olympics should be that shallow. If athletes prefer a deep pool, the pool should be deep. Swimming is one of the premier sports at Olympics. It's also a facility that has one of the most reuse if built properly. You don't think a Paris aquatic center wouldn't get tons of reuse in wor…

> There's Olympic gold medals on the line. People are going absolutely as hard as they can. They don't have to outswim the bear. They just have to outswim the silver medalist.

Right, if you are swimming in multiple events then it doesn't necessarily make sense to swim as hard as you can in the early events if that is going to tire you out for the latter events.

Re: Is a 'slow' swimming pool impeding world records?

#316

Post by wildzzz »

physicsguy wrote: post #303
ldng wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Supposedly, all the Paris 2024 new accommodation were designed with re-usability for the general public after the Olympics. Is it possible that had an impact the swimming pool on design choices ? Put differently, are performance design at odd with more general/accessible design in the case of a swimming pool ?

Given the abandonment of olympic venues all the way round the world, I don't think this is a bad thing. There's a lot in the book Soccernomics about how the economic value promised by politicians lobbying for hosting things like this rarely pan out.

There's definitely economic value but it really only goes to the companies building facilities, the suppliers, and the hospitality industry immediately surrounding the events. In an already well-developed city, they aren't going to be building many new permanent structures. Many will be temporary that will eventually be torn down or just converted back to what they were originally. The money is spent, distributed to the companies that directly participated in the build up and run of the Olympics but there's little gain made after.

A more interesting way of doing the Olympics would be to only allow for developing countries to participate in the selection process. Each country would be required to meet a certain level of funding to guarantee they can support the entire Olympics. Foreign investment would be encouraged. There would be a requirement for some aspects to be permanent construction, you couldn't just build a tent city for the athlete village. Then a name is picked randomly. The host country then receives major foreign investment, not just in sporting arenas, but in many areas of its economy. The Olympic committee could also collect dues from participating countries based on GDP that would go to the host country for economic development. It would basically create a lottery system for the economy of developing countries. The build up to the Olympics would create the infrastructure needed for future investment. This would likely require host cities to be selected much further out in advance. An oversight committee would observe the development and if milestones are not met, a host city from a developed country that does have the infrastructure necessary would instead be chosen.

Re: Is a 'slow' swimming pool impeding world records?

#317

Post by adolph »

samldev wrote: post #5

I was a college swimmer, qualified for Olympic Trials in 2012 and 2016. There are absolutely slow and fast pools. It basically comes down to two things: 1. The depth - which is only 7ft in Paris, unusually shallow for a competition pool. 2. The sides. Does the water spill over the sides into the gutters, or smash into a wall and bounce back, creating more chop. A trained eye can see all the swimmers in Paris struggli…

Why aren't swimming lanes stadium shaped like running tracks or speed skating? Floor mounted LED indicators could advise competitors of the relative distance ahead and behind of nearest adversaries.

Re: Is a 'slow' swimming pool impeding world records?

#318

Post by QuarterReptile »

tw04 wrote: post #305
ldng wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Supposedly, all the Paris 2024 new accommodation were designed with re-usability for the general public after the Olympics. Is it possible that had an impact the swimming pool on design choices ? Put differently, are performance design at odd with more general/accessible design in the case of a swimming pool ?

Given the pool was put on top of a rugby pitch, which resulted in the shallower depth because they didn't want to destroy the pitch (a full depth pool would have weighed too much) - unlikely. The pool isn't a permanent structure, it's not going to remain there after the olympics are done. I would be very surprised if they re-use it at all - an "above ground" pool of that size seems like it would be more trouble than…

I can't speak to the French ecosystem, but in the US these pools often (usually?) get resold to swim clubs who find some land and build buildings around them.

Re: Is a 'slow' swimming pool impeding world records?

#319

Post by thaumasiotes »

BoringTimesGang wrote: post #287
thaumasiotes wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, that's according to a theory to which you've added a strange caveat that a year is insufficient I'm not the one who specified multiple years. You're making my point. Scarblac claimed people set personal records at the Olympics because they plan to set that record years in advance, adopting a personal regimen with the goal that their performance before the Olympics won't be as good as their performance during th…

People who are capable of setting world records are capable of beating the competition, to allow them to qualify for a more prestigious competition, without 100% effort.

Those are people who do know that they're winning the qualifier before it happens.

Re: Is a 'slow' swimming pool impeding world records?

#320

Post by mrgoldenbrown »

lostlogin wrote: post #295
lordnacho wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On that note, I should mention the idea of having a permanent Olympic city. Perhaps a new one. That way, there's no circus that goes around at great expense each time, and the Olympic city becomes a centre for sports science during the interim. Perhaps have separate summer and winter cities. Only drawback is the ioc doesn't get to choose a city every four years.

> Only drawback is the ioc doesn't get to choose a city every four years. That’s a massive drawback which is probably insurmountable. They to love kickback.

Imagine the bribes they would get when choosing the permanent city though!
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