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Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer advocates warn

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Re: Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer advocates warn

#311

Post by xethos »

no_way_1209567 wrote: post #287
jpnguyen wrote: post #14

Japan has tap payments for public transit and restaurants for decades, while simultaneously being very cash driven. Will be interesting to see how the cash meta evolves with different countries and cultures.

Here in Canada, Metro Vancouver implemented a tap payment system with gates for its transit system about ten years ago. They started by generating outrage about fare evaders (the previous system was an "honor" based proof of payment, at least for the train). They claimed to be losing ~3 million $CAD yearly to fare evasion. Then they made a plan to retrofit all the train stations with fare gates, and get new machines…

> Then I learned that the maintenance cost [...] was on the order of $3 million/year.

And you assume the previous system cost $0 annually for maintenance?

Re: Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer advocates warn

#312

Post by bonestamp2 »

gary_0 wrote: post #222
bonestamp2 wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you prefer debit over credit? Aren't the consumer protection benefits greater with credit cards?

I just want to pay for things. I'm not interested in spending money I don't have. And credit cards are obviously waiting to pounce on me if I forget to pay the balance, and charge an insane amount of interest. I don't need the added complication.

Sure, that's one way to look at it. But I set my credit card to pay off the entire balance every month so I don't worry about any of those concerns. But, I also get the benefits that most cards offer (automatic extended warranties, purchase protection, price protection, etc).

Re: Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer advocates warn

#313

Post by matthewdgreen »

mattmanser wrote: post #255
matthewdgreen wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked in a smaller, independent guitar store for a few years in the 90s. We received enough cash and checks that once a day someone would have to walk over to the “night deposit” slot and toss a bag in. Our cash handling cost was equal to my salary for the 30 minutes it took me to make that walk, plus the risk that I would get mugged ($0 lost over a few years.) Often the owner would rake out enough to cover his sp…

Your bosses' bank would have been charging him a cash processing fee. Easy to forget! A quick Google and found Danske UK's small business fees, 80p per £100 (or 0.8%). Without all the other costs associated that I mentioned that your boss took a lot of risks not handling. Obviously stores that 90% of transactions actually happen in can't take those risks. And that 30% for a $5 is totally made up, that's not the fees…

I checked my local US bank (Bank of America business account) and for business accounts the processing fee appears to be 0.3% with the first $5,000-20,000 per statement period exempted. That is approximately 1/20th of the card fee for that 5 pound transaction you gave.

I think it’s easy to treat a factor of 20x as just another number. But at a certain point quantity is its own quality: the difference between 6% and 0.3% is so large that the second one might as well be zero.

Re: Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer advocates warn

#314

Post by dang »

lupusreal wrote: post #64
Dig1t wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They were peacefully protesting, how were they criminals?

[flagged]

Can you please not post in the flamewar and/or ideological battle style to HN? It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for.

If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it. Note this one:

"Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive."

and this one:

"Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. It tramples curiosity."

Re: Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer advocates warn

#315

Post by dang »

nick_ wrote: post #128
lupusreal wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who said anything about the US government? Left wing protestors get plenty of leeway in Canada but right wing protestors get branded terrorists for being loud. Oh but it "wasn't done lightly", whatever that's meant to mean, so obviously it's kosher.

Oh I see. You're crazy.

Posting like this will get you banned here, regardless of how wrong another commenter is or you feel they are, so please don't do it on HN.

If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it.

The other commenter was breaking the site guidelines too, but in a different way, and I've responded to them also.

Re: Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer advocates warn

#316

Post by dang »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #131
mandmandam wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That argument was used (a lot) to decry suffragette protests and desegregation protests. I for one am glad that women and black people didn't take it too seriously. You may want to read some MLK - he had some very clear words about the liberal who demands civility in the face of oppression.

So MLK and the suffragettes blockaded the town square and blew truck horns all night. Got it. Oh, wait, no, they voluntarily sacrificed their freedom and were arrested, beaten, and tortured for their beliefs. I guess you're confused.

You posted many flamewar comments in this thread and appear to have done more than any other single account to spoil it. We ban accounts that do this, and your account has (it turns out) been doing it for a long long time:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34537163 (Jan 2023)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22904111 (April 2020)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22114100 (Jan 2020)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19449785 (March 2019)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18233901 (Oct 2018)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16783015 (April 2018)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14278148 (May 2017)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10780427 (Dec 2015)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9985956 (Aug 2015)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8825352 (Jan 2015)

That's excessive and abusive. We need you, same as any other user, to follow the site guidelines regardless of how right you are or feel you are, and regardless of how wrong others are or you feel they are.

I appreciate your substantive posts but it's also the case that you've been posting abusively in totally other contexts (e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40759689). If you keep this up we're going to have to ban you, so if you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and fix this, that would be good.

Re: Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer advocates warn

#317

Post by dang »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #28

[flagged]

We detached this wretched flamewar from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40838754 and marked it off topic.

You not only started it, you appear to have done the most to perpetuate it. That's seriously not ok. Please see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40852451.

Re: Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer advocates warn

#318

Post by dang »

gruez wrote: post #162
CamperBob2 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sleep deprivation is torture under the Geneva Convention. It's rightfully considered a war crime. You don't get to do that to other people. Not in my idea of a civil society.

Get a grip. Honking is honking. Comparing it to "war crimes" like killing civilians makes little sense and is disingenuous[1]. [1] https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/yCWPkLi8wJvewPbEp/the-noncen...

Please don't break the HN guidelines like this, and please don't perpetuate flamewars like this. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

(Yes, the other commenter was also breaking the site guidelines and I've responded to them elsewhere.)

Re: Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer advocates warn

#319

Post by dang »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #253
CamperBob2 wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Deliberate sleep deprivation is torture. It isn't "non-violent protest." This isn't a matter of opinion.

nonsense. Locking someone in a cell and keeping them awake for the purpose if inflicting suffering is torture. Making noise so that someone in the freedom of their own home has to put ear plugs in is not. conflating them ignores the clear differences and stretches the meaning of the word. You might as well say an ice cream display in the super market is torture.

Please don't break the HN guidelines like this, and please don't perpetuate flamewars. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

(Yes, the other commenter was also breaking the site guidelines and I've responded to them elsewhere.)

Re: Canada 'sleepwalking' into cashless society, consumer advocates warn

#320

Post by no_way_1209567 »

xethos wrote: post #311
no_way_1209567 wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here in Canada, Metro Vancouver implemented a tap payment system with gates for its transit system about ten years ago. They started by generating outrage about fare evaders (the previous system was an "honor" based proof of payment, at least for the train). They claimed to be losing ~3 million $CAD yearly to fare evasion. Then they made a plan to retrofit all the train stations with fare gates, and get new machines…

> Then I learned that the maintenance cost [...] was on the order of $3 million/year. And you assume the previous system cost $0 annually for maintenance?

53 stations with a couple dozen robotic fare gates each sounds like about $3mil/yr to me.

If they really did it to stop fare evasion, it was ideological, not pragmatic. They spent pounds to save pennies.

Mass surveillance, on the other hand, is a motivation that makes sense, just not something you can really sell to the public when looking to spend a hundred million of taxpayer money.

On the other other hand, the kind of government that attempts to stamp out petty crime, at any cost, is the same sort of government that tends to want to surveil everyone.

They were teeing up introducing a "road pricing" scheme that would have also happened to record every vehicle trip on the local highways when their government was defeated.

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