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Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

nytimes.com

311–320 of 599 posts

Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not either/or. The psychological shit is real, but the physical damage to the brain is real also. Both things are true.

> It’s not either/or. The psychological shit is real Depends, because we had millenia of wars, even much more gruesome (but without explosions), and much fewer accounts of psychological shit. It was just a fact of life, and most people carried on.

Fewer accounts maybe but life used to be a lot shorter and more violent back then, more like in poor and unstable countries today. For long periods of history many children wouldn't grow to become adults and adult men would frequently get conscripted. Those who saw extensive combat experience would often succumb to injuries. Not to mention that most of them wouldn't know how to write and wouldn't be of interest to anyone who knew how to write.

The aristocracy generally fared relatively well in medieval battles as it was more profitable to capture a noble unharmed for ransom than to risk severely injuring or killing them, not to mention the class taboo and difference in training and equipment between a noble and a commoner.

But warfare was also extremely different. The use of crossbows against Christians was banned by the Catholic church because it was considered too horrifying because of its speed. Battles would often be won by forcing the other side to surrender or morale breaking down and being routed. Because the violence was also much more direct than the pull of a trigger or press of a button, humans were also much more hesitant to actually try and kill their opponent. The crusades are infamous because they actually involved a more modern level of dehumanization but throughout most of history wars would be fought against people who looked like you, spoke a similar language and shared a similar culture. The exceptions are so well-known because they were rare.

"It was just a fact of life" is something we say about all kinds of horrors of the past. You say "most people carried on" but this is literally survivor bias: most people who served in past wars don't go on to kill themselves even without treatment even when they suffer from PTSD or shell shock or whatever. That doesn't mean recognizing and treating their condition wouldn't drastically increase their quality of life. It also ignores that "most" is not all. People would simply starve themselves to death or go into the woods and never come back or get "battle frenzy" and throw themselves at the enemy with no regard for their safety and that too was "just a fact of life" but today we would call that suicide.

History is full of "psychological shit". We just lacked the understanding of psychology to properly classify and recognize it in ways that would allow us to address any of it.

Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#312
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh. Historically, the rationale for excluding women from the draft was that they weren't eligible to serve in combat roles, voluntarily or otherwise. (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rostker_v._Goldberg ) That policy changed by 2016, so the rationale no longer holds. With that said, we also haven't had mandatory conscription since the Vietnam War, and I think it's unlikely that we would any time in the near future…

>Historically, the rationale for excluding women from the draft was that they weren't eligible to serve in combat roles, voluntarily or otherwise Historically countries didn't let women fight in wars because they didn't want their civilisation to die out. If a country loses a double-digit percent of its men it can still repopulate just as quickly, because one man can make multiple women pregnant, while if it loses it…

> Historically countries didn't let women fight in wars because they didn't want their civilisation to die out.

No, women have been excluded from front-line combat because they are physically weaker than men and would be killed quickly without accomplishing much. Men are just much more aggressive, have higher stamina etc. It's never been about repopulation. Nothing biologically stops a woman having 10 children with a single man, it's just rare.

Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FYI, also modern helmets are not designed to stop bullets but rather to protect from shrapnel and hand grenades. Stopping a bullet would mean breaking the wearers neck. (The kinetic energy needs to go somewhere after all.)

I don't think it would break the neck. Typical AK47 bullet at 100yd has momentum 5 kgm/s, which is about the same as a baseball at 77mph.

Guns are kinetic energy weapons, not momentum weapons. It’s the kinetic energy that matters.

Momentum is conserved, recoil momentum is the same as bullet momentum, yet recoil does not kill the shooter.

Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#314
post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why on earth would you think laws would be necessary? This mechanism is older than laws or human civilization itself.

Because in practically every country there are laws on marriage, and it's usually (Muslim world being the exception) 1:1 in partners. It adds legal and financial protections for both parts of the couple. Unless there's a law change, how do you see this working? A married man going around spreading seed and women getting pregnant and going at it alone?

> It adds legal and financial protections for both parts of the couple. Unless there's a law change, how do you see this working?

I see it working without the luxury of extra legal and financial protection.

> A married man going around spreading seed and women getting pregnant and going at it alone?

Well that and more. It's a combination of all available options:

* Men having kids outside of marriage

* Men having kids from 2-3 marriages

* Women marrying older men who normally are out of the reproduction race

None of that is unheard of even in peace times, and just becomes more frequent.

> women getting pregnant and going at it alone

Women going at it alone is a very modern phenomenon. It takes a village to raise a child, not just your partner. And conversely if you do have a village to support you then you don't need your partner that much.

So all of it certainly can work and did work in the past. How it will pan out in the 21st century no one knows yet. I hope we'll never have to learn.

Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Come to think of it, I'm unaware of any war over the last 100 years between conventional forces that didn't involve trench warfare. The biggest difference/innovation as of late is inverting the trench, bringing the dirt/sandbags above ground instead of the soldiers below ground https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesco_bastion

> I'm unaware of any war over the last 100 years between conventional forces that didn't involve trench warfare Anything involving modern combined-arms warfare. Iraq, for example.

I'm being a bit unfair in that I'm counting hesco as a kind of trench warfare, but you're right in that that doesn't exactly apply on 'patrol'

Still, I believe earthen barriers are still used to solidify the 'frontlines' if you squint a bit

Afaik the Iraq Iran war was still doing straight up trench warfare (at points) and the Syrian civil war + Afghan theater were using caves (in some areas). Same with Korea and Vietnam.

Then again you're right in that I don't think sudan etc have used trench warfare (in the first civil war, apparently the second one has on a post edit search: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-65962771 )

You're completely right on the second Iraq war, I don't see any sources for trenches, minus hesco.

I think what I comes down to is trench warfare is popular for the same reason earthworks are popular in civil engineering. Cheap, locally sourced, and effective in its purpose.

Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#316
post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

.50 cal sniper rifles and shoulder launched weapons like Carl Gustaf, the M72 LAW or the AT4 can. Firing a rifle may or may not cause shock waves that are strong enough. If you have been firing a whole day you definitely feel funny in the head.

that feeling might be partly due to the large amounts of lead compounds in primers being inhaled by the shooter

Not really a concern outdoors. Ben Stoeger, world shooting champion and firearms trainer who shoots a lot, said his blood lead levels are normal and attributes it to shooting outdoors.

Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you ever get the chance, go shoot some small caliber weapons. I think everyone should at some point to have a baseline in their head for what guns are. Plus, I think it’d be good for people to know you can become really hard to hit by all but the best shooters by… walking away slowly in a zigzag. Near impossible if you run. And then if you have a chance to be around some small artillery, do that too. It’s hard to…

> you can become really hard to hit by all but the best shooters by… walking away slowly in a zigzag. Near impossible if you run. Idk if i would trust my life with that. What if they just spray a bunch of bullets in the general direction I am? Also what is the minimum distance where this tactic becomes effective? I just can’t imagine that zigzagging helps that much when you are 2 meters away from the shooter. And the…

> What if they just spray a bunch of bullets in the general direction I am?

From what I understand, real soldiers generally don't spray bullets like you see in movies or video games unless they are in a defensive machine gun nest or on some sort of vehicle. Ammo is an extremely finite and precious resource on the battlefield. You can't carry much with you, and you don't necessarily know when you can resupply, so every shot has to count. If you spray bullets you'll be out within seconds and then you're on a battlefield unarmed. Not good.

> And then there is the question of what is the typical distance between the shooter and the victim in most gun violence scenarios.

In a war? Can be quite high.

> how would going to a range and shooting guns help one learn this information?

Ranges have moving targets, you try to hit them and observe that it's hard.

Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#318
post #217

> Much of what is categorized as post-traumatic stress disorder may actually be caused by repeated exposure to blasts. that is to say, it's actually shell shock? as in, actual physical shock from actual shells? george carlin would be so proud https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuEQixrBKCc the article also mentions that they'd all trained extensively in diving deep underwater, which is also known to cause brain damage, b…

You state a lot of random things as a fact, while none of them are, not sure why the upvotes.

Other react mostly to guns, but as a diver I can assure you that there is no automatic brain damage from 'diving deep underwater', whatever that layman term means. There are many folks in diving community with 10s of thousand of dives working cognitively as well as their peers. If you mean Nitrox for bigger depths, again that ain't true, Nitrox is actually better than regular compressed air re effects like nitrogen bubbles in your bloodstream.

If you screw up or your equipment fails and end up with decompression sickness thats another story, but its like saying paragliding breaks your legs.

Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#319
post #308
post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Infidelity exists. Serial monogamy exists. No-strings liaisons exist. Polyamory exists. Etc. Single mothers exist even with an equal number of men and women. The exact legal nature of marriage is not going to stop any of these. Enormous numbers of people have lived and reproduced without any legal or financial protections at all, including the majority of your ancestors.

And the core premise I'm disagreeing is that countries on purpose draft only men, because women are kept to be bred to repopulate the country in case of military disaster. IF that were the case, governments would do something , anything , to encourage such behaviour (one man getting multiple women pregnant) after the war is over. Nobody is able to come up with any examples of anything like that happening, which again…

Fertility rates do not decrease after a war, which means fewer remaining men get the same number of women pregnant.

Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#320
post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the core premise I'm disagreeing is that countries on purpose draft only men, because women are kept to be bred to repopulate the country in case of military disaster. IF that were the case, governments would do something , anything , to encourage such behaviour (one man getting multiple women pregnant) after the war is over. Nobody is able to come up with any examples of anything like that happening, which again…

Fertility rates do not decrease after a war, which means fewer remaining men get the same number of women pregnant.

From a sibling comment, in Russia fertility rates did indeed decrease:

https://direct.mit.edu/rest/article-abstract/99/2/229/58403/...

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