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Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

theguardian.com

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Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#311

Post by jodrellblank »

crazygringo wrote: post #207
wahnfrieden wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because business owners and politicians working for the economy decide that. It’s fun to come up with rules that would fix imbalance but curious how you think such rules can happen without deeper (however achievable) changes to society predicating them outside current norms (eg voting and waiting; maybe organizing around getting more people to vote and wait with you)

Voters decide things too. But that's not just a hot-button issue for any voter I've ever met. Why not? It actually wouldn't be too hard to implement without wage theft in either direction -- mandate some kind of escrow functionality by law, built into direct deposit. In other words, if you work daily, the money is deposited in "escrow mode" at the start of your shift, and you can verify it in your banking app. But it…

> "If your boss doesn't approve that you completed the day's work when you actually did, the money stays in escrow until it gets settled by a court."

Boss: "Your court hearing will be in 2-6 months, you'll need to take time off work to go to court and I'll get the company lawyer to argue our side so you'll need to pay for a lawyer to argue your side. You'll need to risk losing and being lumbered with court costs on top, and extra time and costs for a retrial. Or ... you could stay an extra hour tomorrow and I'll approve today's salary release. What do you say, low-wage labourer?"

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#312

Post by vundercind »

Philorandroid wrote: post #278
vundercind wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I claim that the name “capitalism” states whose interests are favored in our system. That’s a claim, and it’s not vague. Also I didn’t voice distaste.

It's hard to interpret "We basically put a big flashing sign right out front saying whose interests are the top priority" as anything but distaste, just as it's hard to parse "the name “capitalism” states whose interests are favored in our system" as anything but a favorable verisimilitude. Whose capital? Construction contractors? Service industry bosses? How exactly are they favored? Clearly wage theft is a well-und…

> How is any of this unique to a capitalist system and prevented in, say, command economies?

Social-capitalist economies (the “social democracies” and adjacent) tend to do better job at this particular thing. Unions are pretty damn effective at cutting down on employers failing to follow through on their obligations, for one thing, and other states do a better job of supporting and incubating those organizations, besides whatever else they do in statute and enforcement to curb the power of capital to behave poorly.

The US tends to center its capitalist nature more than other states, is why I suggested we wear it rather “on our sleeve”.

“Why does this liquid taste like apples?”

“My brother in Christ: the label reads ‘Apple Juice’”

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#313

Post by phone8675309 »

strictnein wrote: post #270
PenguinCoder wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The promise of salary work in America is such one sided bullcrap. Get paid the same amount of to get your work done no matter the time it takes. if it takes 6 hours or 12 hours, you'll get the same amount. But if you don't work at least 40hrs a week on salary, we're docking your pay. Oh but also, you don't get paid for any hours over 8 in a day. Salary!

> But if you don't work at least 40hrs a week on salary, we're docking your pay. I've never encountered such a system in my 20+ years being paid a salary. What companies do this? Worked for two European firms (including one very large one) and two large American firms during that time. Is it something small companies try to do?

I worked for one of the largest firms in the US, and they required us to report our hours worked every week, docking us if we worked less than 40 hours.

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#314

Post by stevenwoo »

jokoon wrote: post #309

The US never ceases to surprise me That's so medieval and backward for a country like that

If I'm not mistaken, we are the only country which has a founding document enshrining chattel slavery. Many of the issues in the USA stem from this, amendments notwithstanding - it's a stain on everything, arguments in the top legal court, the Supreme Court, frequently bring up the historicity so we are constantly enmeshed in very old and sometimes medieval thinking, i.e. recent abortion decision referenced many legal arguments that preceded modern biology or medicine.

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#315

Post by SantalBlush »

hackerlight wrote: post #110
darth_avocado wrote: post #43

People thinking wage theft only affects lower wage workers, let me tell you how tech companies commit wage theft: 1. Having annual components to wages (RSUs, bonuses), making you work all year and firing you just before they have to pay you. 2. Having no overtime for salaried employees 3. Having employees work extra responsibilities that are not part of the job description by promising promotions and then not giving…

Verbal promises about a promotion/payrise and then pulling the rug is also common.

"Times are tough" is a refrain I've been hearing from employers since the 2009 recession. Somehow the economy is never good from an employer's point of view--just varying degrees of bad--so they can never afford those raises they promised.

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#316

Post by FireBeyond »

Jensson wrote: post #298
ToucanLoucan wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Citation: Dude trust me Hot, hot, hot fucking garbage. When I was in college and broke, and struggled to make rent, I was KEENLY FUCKING AWARE I owed it. It was a fact that was on my mind 24 hours a day, including inducing stress nightmares about losing my place to live. Just absolute, 100%, shit from a bull's ass. Bullshit, you might say. I dunno where in the world you got this notion, but as someone who spent a you…

You don't think that the people who run companies that makes negative profits and thus can't pay workers since they lack the money doesn't feel the same? Just because some do that doesn't mean it is the norm. Edit: You see plenty of stories from company owners who worry if they can pay salaries next month and it is all they can think about, that is the kind of person you are calling a "wage thief" here, even though t…

It's laughable that you think the only companies committing wage theft are those that are not profitable and are struggling to keep the lights on.

And even if they are, remind me where your constitutional right to a profitable business is? If paying your workers means you can't keep the lights on, then you can't keep the lights on. Too many even in this situation think the answer is "keep the lights on, before paying workers".

But highly profitable businesses (up to and including Apple) also commit wage theft. So please don't try to turn this into yet another "poor small business owners" trope.

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#317

Post by samatman »

mjburgess wrote: post #230
phpisthebest wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is very simplistic, and somewhat wrong First and foremost, states do not, and cannot "create free markets" the existence of a state to regulation a market makes is de-facto non-free This is also a very rose colored look at unions, while simultaneously demonizing businesses. In reality it is completely possible to have an exploitive union. At the end of the day, power corrupts, and the more power a person or grou…

err.. no, free markets are state constructions. By default, an unregulated market becomes non-free essentially immediately, as cartels form (indeed, as cartels of cartels form, hence states ). As Hobbes observed, in the state of nature there is no motivation to remain as an individual, so you form groups in order for self-protection. In an "anarchical market" you end up with incredible levels of monopolisation (etc.)…

Cartels are a feature of free markets.

I would argue that it's good for the state to take some sort of interest in regulating them, one of several ways that I'm not a free-market fundamentalist.

But arguing that the formation of cartels makes a market non-free is backward. Cartels emerge through free association in trade. Regulating them might make for a more functional market, a more efficient market (or it might not) but it makes for a less free market, always.

I will add that I consider the very idea of "absence of the state" to be badly-formed, states vary considerably in their constitution but there's always something serving that role, even if it's a few elders in a village.

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#318

Post by analog31 »

Jensson wrote: post #215
ToucanLoucan wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to demonstrate to someone why the legal system is designed for the wealthy and not the common people, I don't think you can do better than the entire subject of wage theft. Wage theft utterly eclipses every other form of larceny in the United States at least, and it is practically legal in every way apart from the letter of the law. Few companies ever see any consequences at all, and the few that do, it's…

> Wage theft utterly eclipses every other form of larceny in the United States at least If you define being late with payments as theft, then I'd bet that rent theft is way larger than wage theft. I don't see why you would say that it is theft when you are late with payments to a worker but not theft when you are late with payments to a company. If being late with payments isn't theft, then "wage theft" isn't theft,…

Rent is a contractual obligation and the remedy for late payment is built into the contract. Hardly comparable.

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#319

Post by [deleted] »

stcredzero wrote: post #210

This has happened to me! In a programming job, no less! Is this something which could be addressed through the use of a specialized AI assistant? The biggest barrier to uncompensated workers is the cost of litigation. If the worker could represent themselves effectively, then this would stop.

[deleted]

Re: Billions stolen in wage theft from US workers

#320

Post by empyrrhicist »

spamizbad wrote: post #9

This phenomena is pretty widespread in the service industry and I would venture to say that a significant minority of businesses participate in some version of wage theft. For example, one of my jobs right out of high school was waiting tables at a local restaurant. If you were opening, the expectation from owners and management was you'd get in early to help open but would wait 15 minutes before service started befo…

Similarly, I worked for a restaurant in high school that abused tips to pay wages for non-servers. When I was hired I asked about tips, and was told "yep, you get tip share". It turns out "tip share" meant "you get a flat wage, and we pay for it using tips from the servers".

I turned down a job at a nice Italian place to work there because of that lie and a $1 difference per hour in the base wage.

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