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Over the edge: The use of design tactics to undermine browser choice

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Re: Over the edge: The use of design tactics to undermine browser choice

#311

Post by Mindwipe »

user234683 wrote: post #165
6c696e7578 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably seems weird to you, but I've never got on with the Windows UI. There's too many things that steal focus. I've been XFCE for too many years now, but it doesn't change significantly that I find I have to invest time learning what's changed. There used to be a 'tile windows' since windows 2.0 or something like that, but it did just that, splatted the windows to take up all the space. One thing I like about X11…

I rarely get focus stolen on Windows 10. They now make it very difficult for applications to do this (see the allowed conditions here: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/api/winuser/... ). In contrast, focus stealing is a way of life on XFCE, and I just have to put up with it. The settings they recommend to fix it don't actually help.

The Office 365 message that it is unable to log into a resource (usually because your VPN has dropped, not unusual for home workers nowadays) doesn't even go into focus when it's supposed to be at this point.

I am baffled as to how that has been allowed to go on so long. It makes Office a trainwreck usability wise.

Re: Over the edge: The use of design tactics to undermine browser choice

#312

Post by Lazonedo »

noduerme wrote: post #65
orbital-decay wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NT was far more resource-demanding (i.e. "sluggish") than 9x due to all the abstractions - it's just the hardware that progressed so fast in a few years that it was kind of irrelevant.

I feel like almost all software since roughly the advent of the CD-ROM, when distro size stopped being a major limit, has been in a race to outbloat Moore's Law.

The difference between NT and modern bloat (like electron) is that it was very much necessary bloat, the sort that makes computing safer and more reliable (running more things in user mode rather than with kernel authority, true multitasking), as opposed to abstractions that exist solely to boost productivity and make developers happy assembling their library lego blocks. But that 'bloat' made it too expensive in hardware requirements for the home user which is why the NT line had to exist separately from the 9x series until XP. And if anything, unfortunately, Microsoft kept making more compromises with NT that I wish they never did. NT 3.5 ran the graphic stack in user mode. They put it in the kernel for NT4 and only started backtracking on that sort of monolithic design with Vista. (Vista was a controversial OS but most of the architectural decisions they've made with it were the right ones and those decisions still live on in Windows 7, 8, 10 and 11).

Re: Over the edge: The use of design tactics to undermine browser choice

#313

Post by RGamma »

noduerme wrote: post #65
orbital-decay wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NT was far more resource-demanding (i.e. "sluggish") than 9x due to all the abstractions - it's just the hardware that progressed so fast in a few years that it was kind of irrelevant.

I feel like almost all software since roughly the advent of the CD-ROM, when distro size stopped being a major limit, has been in a race to outbloat Moore's Law.

Wirth's law

Re: Over the edge: The use of design tactics to undermine browser choice

#314

Post by clemiclemen »

voltaireodactyl wrote: post #80
sccxy wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Safari and Firefox does not allow other search engines also. For Chrome/Edge I have added a lot of small shortcuts for IMDB, post tracking codes, geoip and many more "not search" things to search bar. Just keyword and %s in search url is needed.

Just for the record, you can absolutely change the default search engine in Safari and Firefox. I use kagi in both, so bangs are supported everywhere.

Changing the search engine in Safari is limited to a very specific list though. Using Kagi as a search engine in Safari requires using an extension that intercept search engines queries and redirects through Kagi[1].

[1]: https://help.kagi.com/kagi/getting-started/setting-default.h...

Re: Over the edge: The use of design tactics to undermine browser choice

#315

Post by RGamma »

squigz wrote: post #89
p0nce wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know, Windows 11 came with many things I've wanted for years: - notepad with tabs - shell UI with tabs, VT-100 support and ability to replace the shell - Paint.net with AI - even Windbg has massively improved

Ahhh, tabs... it only took 40 years!

And now we can't make the taskbar vertical anymore. I'm not sure I can make it another 40.

Re: Over the edge: The use of design tactics to undermine browser choice

#316

Post by RGamma »

YPPH wrote: post #26

Windows just keeps getting weirder. There's this regrettable dichotomy between (1) a rock solid OS core with great features like Hyper-V, PowerShell and exceptional back-compat, and (2) a crap, sluggish, inconsistent UI slapped on top, laden with ads, "Rewards" Points and tracking.

The white flashing in dark mode is killing me...

Re: Over the edge: The use of design tactics to undermine browser choice

#317

Post by neuromanser »

epolanski wrote: post #39
YPPH wrote: post #26

Windows just keeps getting weirder. There's this regrettable dichotomy between (1) a rock solid OS core with great features like Hyper-V, PowerShell and exceptional back-compat, and (2) a crap, sluggish, inconsistent UI slapped on top, laden with ads, "Rewards" Points and tracking.

WSL2, power toys and hands down the best window management of any OS, I hate working on my MBP just due to the difficulty of managing different windows and aligning them on the same desktop.

I have no experience with macOS, or trouble believing that it's even worse than Windows. That said: I can't use WSL or PowerToys at work for (enforced) dumb policy reasons - this is possible because they're optional bolt-ons as opposed to integral parts of Windows. PowerToys exists because the the base functionality is poor, and the contemporary PowerToys implementation leaves a lot to be desired. And last but definitely not least, window management in Windows, with or without PowerToys, sucks donkey balls IMO, especially in heterogenous multi-monitor systems. Aggravated by the knee-capped taskbar. I mean, it's not like window management is great anywhere, but claiming that it's somehow good in Windows is rich.

Two anecdotes: starting Windows Terminal by clicking an icon in the taskbar (W10) creates a window that's not focused. W11 does away with the alt-space keyboard shortcut to open the window operations menu.

Re: Over the edge: The use of design tactics to undermine browser choice

#318

Post by XCSme »

cladopa wrote: post #60
epolanski wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WSL2, power toys and hands down the best window management of any OS, I hate working on my MBP just due to the difficulty of managing different windows and aligning them on the same desktop.

I have a question for you: If you make a Pie Chart with the time you send on each OS: Linux, Windows and Mac, what will be the percentages? Specially while you were young. Of all the languages I speak, German is the more chaotic language by far. But most native Germans consider it the best/easiest. For me the Windows management of Windows is horrible, but I spent like 90% of my time in Linux were I was young, even us…

> Of all the languages I speak, German is the more chaotic language by far. But most native Germans consider it the best/easiest.

I consider my native language to be chaotic and hard to learn. Not all things are subjective, some things can be objectively compared.

Re: Over the edge: The use of design tactics to undermine browser choice

#319

Post by metaphor »

sccxy wrote: post #274
morsch wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UI is weird, that said, the feature goes back 20 years, see e.g. http://johnbokma.com/firefox/keymarks-explained/comments.htm... I wonder if it existed all the way back in a version of Netscape Navigator? On Firefox Android, you can also just go to into settings, search, manage search engines, + add search engine. So, basically, exactly where you would expect it. I think on desktop it's just as easy? Can't you ju…

> On Firefox Android, you can also just go to into settings, search, manage search engines, + add search engine. So, basically, exactly where you would expect it. I would expect same in Desktop also. But in Desktop you have to add bookmarks to manage extra search settings. If Mozilla is pissing other browsers all the time then why they do not fix it. Googles money does not allow easier search settings?

It's obvious you're not just seeking feature parity...you're being a contrarian for its own sake.

Keyword bookmarks have been a thing in Firefox since 1.0.x days and well before Chrome was officially released. It's an opinionated implementation that lives today as ~2 decades of deeply engrained tech debt. How do you even come off expecting Mozilla to operate at the same level as Google and its $1.7+ trillion market cap?? The level of entitlement in your remarks is simply beyond absurd.

Re: Over the edge: The use of design tactics to undermine browser choice

#320

Post by hakfoo »

jqpabc123 wrote: post #106

Mozilla took aim ... and wiffed ... big time. Edge hasn't displaced Firefox, Chrome has. But they have about 600 million ($) reasons to avoid pointing this out. Let's face the facts --- Mozilla is Google's bitch and has been for a long time. And this is just the latest example.

Edge has the unique position of being the first browser you have access to on a fresh Windows PC, so if it stands in the way of changing browsers, it's uniquely problematic.

The fact that 95% of people are trying to change to Chrome doesn't deny the merits of Mozilla's complaints. Remember, anything they put in the way of switching to Chrome will also be deployed against any other browser they consider a threat.

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