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EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

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Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#311
post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The West is made up of countries that often have 40%+ of their economy made up by government spending, ie, spending that wouldn't happen under a free market. How about Japan, Korea, Taiwan, and Chile? What what is the "correct" percent to spend? And, what non-microstate countries do you consider "free market"? By the time you include: military, education, health, and infrastructure, it is very hard to be less than…

> What what is the "correct" percent to spend? Quite an interesting question - theories range from 0% to 100% and everywhere in between. Empirical evidence seems to be that >60% causes a collapse of some sort [3] since nobody serious is doing that. And probably a floor of 20% since Singapore operates at 15% but doesn't really try to field a military and is a micronation. Anywhere at 40%+ seems to have problems with i…

16% from Taiwan (18% from here) looks far too low. I find it hard to believe. Could it be they are measuring differently than the other three?

Other source: https://www.statista.com/statistics/727604/ratio-of-governme...

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#312
post #134

The EU is simply too scared to actually put it's foot down. If they really want to, they can just limit the export of ASML machines only to companies that have at least one of their fabs here in the EU. But they won't. In stead they will just handover €30 billion of public money to multinational corporations with market caps larger than the yearly GDP of some EU countries. Edit: For clarity, I'm not suggesting bannin…

ASML isn't guarding profound insights revealed by the gods requiring some sort of eternal liver pecking sacrifice to obtain. If the EU plays hardball to too great an extent, other countries will replicate the research. China will already have started their attempts. It isn't crazy to expect them to achieve success single handedly. If all of Asia starts mucking in the EU will get crushed. The EU does not have a track…

If it really was so easy then don’t you think every country would have their own ASML?

The economic incentives are there. They’ve BEEN there for decades. To think China doesn’t have an equivalent just because they haven’t cared enough yet is laughable.

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean no one in the USA cares because the USA has accomplished amazing things with that money like say the internet.... Spending in Europe hasn't accomplished a fraction of what the same dollar has done in the USA. It's not clear why.

> Like say the Internet It's not so clear cut ;) "Research at CERN in Switzerland by the British computer scientist Tim Berners-Lee in 1989–90 resulted in the World Wide Web, linking hypertext documents into an information system, accessible from any node on the network." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Internet

There were a couple of global contribution during the development why pick literally the least valuable and most simple to replace one to highlight? We even had perfectly serviceable alternative at the time.

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand your question.

Software engineeers dont work directly with hardware, it aint their expertise. You definitely can be good SE without understanding semiconductors

The problem is that you can also be a programmer without understanding any engineering at all, and most "software engineers" are just that.

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#315
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Engineer: 40k and up [...] I'm sure Google or FB would pay more There's body shops in Eastern Europe that pay more for junior frontend developers...

Primary school teachers make 40k to 72k in the Netherlands. It doesn't make sense to be a software engineer in that country, unless you prefer looking at a screen all day over working with people.

Whoa I'm a senior enterprise it architect in Spain and I only make 60k lol. The Netherlands standard of living has really accelerated since I left there

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#316
post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Netherlands already voted for a Eurosceptic, invoking similar rhetoric as you here - "replacement" of locals by foreigners, taking their jobs, etc. Interestingly, as is almost always the case in Europe, the places with fewer immigrants voted more harshly against them. The question we should ask is whether this is rational or not. I think not. If the Dutch want to vote themselves into a Brexit, then so be it - the…

> If the Dutch want to vote themselves into a Brexit, then so be it - the foreigners will go elsewhere, trade barriers will be erected to "protect" the local economy, and time will tell who will be ahead economically and culturally. And plenty of locals will go elsewhere too. I for one. The morons that effected Brexit should be enough of an example that any other EU country that wants to go the same route has been am…

Exactly where would you go? It's not like there's a lot of nice, developed nations on par with Netherlands that you can just pick up and move to. Perhaps some other EU nations, but many of those are electing similar people lately.

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We could have all the cheap capital in the world but it would still be cheaper to manufacture in China, Taiwan or other parts of Asia where people work 50,60+ hour weeks for lower pay and no benefits or vacation. What about the US? If 75% of Intel's fabbing is done in the US, that should show us something. An EU-based company that sent 25% of its fabbing off to China would also be much better than protectionist law…

What are you talking about? I don't know where they currently stand but Intel used to produce the vast majority of their chips in Asia. US government had to introduce very similar incentives and decided to just hand out dozens of billions of dollars to get them to move production back home, which is arguably worse than what you're criticizing the EU for.

> What are you talking about?

I'm talking about Intel doing manufacturing in the US.

> I don't know where they currently stand but Intel used to produce the vast majority of their chips in Asia.

Can you cite this? E.g. Intel seems to have said something quite different in this press report[0].

> US government had to introduce very similar incentives and decided to just hand out dozens of billions of dollars to get them to move production back home

Can you cite this?

> which is arguably worse than what you're criticizing the EU for

Anything is arguable. It's also arguable it's better. I think it's better, personally.

[0] https://web.archive.org/web/20110302101731/http://newsroom.i...

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#318
post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks. I'm okay with taking the downvotes for comments like this. There's a reactionary political bent on HN and you get more karma from participating in it than pointing it out. It's all fun and games until someone points out we're not rational actors in a vacuum.

> There's a reactionary political bent on HN [..] There really isn't! https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26148870

HN on aggregate tends right libertarian, which is politically neutral with regards to the usual US "libs vs conservatives" political dialog. For every socialist I can show you a dozen Georgists, for every anarchist I can show you a dozen "anarcho-capitalists". There is some general resentment against concentrations of power (e.g. lobbyism favoring large corporations) but an unquestioning faith in the systems that bring it about (i.e. "small government" and "free markets"). There is lively debate around topics like Elon Musk, cryptocurrencies, online censorship and protectionism vs free global trade, but all of this happens through a lens of right libertarianism.

However this also means you will see literal nazis, white supremacists, antisemites, eugenicists, Christian fundamentalists and so on promote their beliefs (and attack others with different beliefs) here. And the people promoting these beliefs have become more open about their stances over time while simultaneously rarely being flagged/killed as long as they can stick to an acceptable register of seeming respectability (e.g. using the trappings of scientism by citing pseudoscience or flawed statistics to support their arguments).

The synthesis of progressive and reactionary is always reactionary because the latter actively relies on dishonesty and deception to propagate itself. An "open marketplace of ideas" will always favor those willing to game the system instead of playing by the rules.

I used to believe that "rational debate" would solve everything, too, but as the adage goes: you shouldn't try to play chess with a pigeon because no matter how good you may be at the game, it will just knock over all the pieces, shit on the board and strut like it won anyway. If you are debating the existence and value of humans, you have already ceded ground to the side that wants them extinguished or silenced.

Note that at no point am I alleging that Dang is reactionary or an "SJW". Much like HN on aggregate, he is a right libertarian: progressive on some civil rights issues, conservative on others but generally in support of free markets and "free speech" as long as it doesn't contain any slurs, explicit insults or direct threats. In his comment he points at the language from "both corners" and shows how similar it is and concludes that if "both sides" are equally upset, he must be doing things right. To play the same rational debate game, this is a well-known fallacy in action: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_to_moderation

If one side argues that people in economically precarious situations who are members of a demographic that has traditionally been discriminated against and actively disenfranchised should receive more support to compensate for the historic injustices and the other side argues that demographic is biologically predisposed to violence and low intelligence and should be treated as dangerous and unfit for skilled labor, "upsetting both sides equally" doesn't mean you've hit a golden mean, it means you've ceded ground to the latter group.

Finally, note that I've said there's a "reactionary political bent on HN". This is what I mean. I'm not saying "HN is reactionary", I'm saying, on aggregate, HN leans reactionary more than progressive, qualified by what I just described about "free debate" and false middles. This is different from Twitter, for example, which since the buyout has demonstrably shifted to reactionary because many progressive liberals and leftists abandoned the platform after it became clear that there was no more interest in moderating even literal nazis. It's also different from 4chan, which at some point was so overrun by "ironic" nazis that it's now impossible to tell what any of its users genuinely believe although in terms of what they say the general tendency is to the far right of almost any political point of reference.

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