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Is htmx Just Another JavaScript Framework?

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Re: Is htmx Just Another JavaScript Framework?

#311

Post by troupo »

recursivedoubts wrote: post #308
flir wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're going to get that picky (and please be aware I'm only doing this for the sake of the argument) media can never be hypermedia in the absence of the client. HTML opened in notepad is just text. Cat GIFs, rendered in the correct client, would absolutely be hypermedia (you could inline link data as QR codes, if you felt like being perverse). Hypermedia starts with the client, not with the file format.

I agree that a hypermedia can't act properly within the uniform interface constraint, without a hypermedia client, that is, you can't have a hypermedia system without a proper hypermedia client: https://htmx.org/essays/hypermedia-clients/ https://hypermedia.systems/hypermedia-components/ On the other hand, there is a real difference between plain text and HTML (or HXML, don't shoot!) which is a subset of text with ad…

> HTML (or HXML, don't shoot!) which is a subset of text with additional concepts layered on top of it. This is akin to how JSON (or XML) is not hypermedia

So, HTML is different from plain text because it "has concepts layered on top of text" where as JSON is not hypermedia despite "having concepts layered on top of text". And the only reason is because you said so.

> So I still think it makes sense to discuss if a media is or is not hypermedia without reference to the client

Then JSON is just as much hypermedia as HTML. Both are structured text unusable without a specific client to display them or work with them.

> Semantic nitpicking perhaps, but then hypermedia discussions appear to tend to invite this sort of thing.

They only invite them because of your insistence on calling only HTML the "natural hypermedia" etc.

Re: Is htmx Just Another JavaScript Framework?

#312

Post by troupo »

recursivedoubts wrote: post #306
troupo wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am very open to other types of hypermedia Of course you're not. And I already pointed it out to you elsewhere. Your entire writing and marketing revolves around one idea, and one idea only: HTML is "natural hypermedia", and everything else is not.

OK, this is just completely unreasonable of you. HTML is a natural hypermedia in that it has native hypermedia controls. JSON & XML are not natural hypermedia because they do not, however hypermedia controls can be added on top of them, as in the case of HXML/hyperview, which, again I include in my book on hypermedia systems . There are many other hypermedias, such as Siren, which uses JSON as a base, and I have neve…

> I hate to be rude but you didn't understand, or refused to acknowledge, the basic meaning and usage of the term 'hypermedia control' until I cited a W3C document using it.

Just because you were correct in one small detail (citing a 2019 standard retrofitting definitions for the use in RDF etc.) doesn't make you correct in the grand scheme of things.

> with baseless accusations of things I haven't said and don't believe.

I literally quoted your own words at you.

> you need to apologize for misrepresenting what I am saying multiple times to other people.

I will not apologize for things that I even quoted from your own writing and words.

Re: Is htmx Just Another JavaScript Framework?

#313

Post by troupo »

recursivedoubts wrote: post #307
troupo wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's my definition of a Hypermedia-Driven Application, a term I made up to contrast with SPAs. There's no contrast. It's not even a made up term. I was doing "hypermedia-driven applications" with HATEOAS in 2012. > I agree with you that a hypermedia can be imposed on top of JSON, which does not have native hypermedia controls The way you extend browser behaviour with Javascript to use non-standard attributes, non…

Is english your first language? I feel like many of your objections, insofar as I can make sense of them, fall into language & semantic debates. The term HDA, which I coined and, therefore, feel like I have some ability to define, was created to contrast with the familiar SPA/Single Page Application acronym, which is a term used in web development. This is why I focus on the web with that article. As I have repeated…

> , fall into language & semantic debates.

They don't.

> that I do not believe that HTML is the only hypermedia in the world.

For a person who doesn't believe that you sure spend a lot of time only talking about HTML and claiming that nothing else is hypermedia.

And yes, I've quoted what you yourself say about this.

Re: Is htmx Just Another JavaScript Framework?

#314

Post by recursivedoubts »

troupo wrote: post #311
recursivedoubts wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that a hypermedia can't act properly within the uniform interface constraint, without a hypermedia client, that is, you can't have a hypermedia system without a proper hypermedia client: https://htmx.org/essays/hypermedia-clients/ https://hypermedia.systems/hypermedia-components/ On the other hand, there is a real difference between plain text and HTML (or HXML, don't shoot!) which is a subset of text with ad…

> HTML (or HXML, don't shoot!) which is a subset of text with additional concepts layered on top of it. This is akin to how JSON (or XML) is not hypermedia So, HTML is different from plain text because it "has concepts layered on top of text" where as JSON is not hypermedia despite "having concepts layered on top of text". And the only reason is because you said so. > So I still think it makes sense to discuss if a m…

> And the only reason is because you said so.

No, the reason is because HTML qua HTML has hypermedia controls and JSON qua JSON does not. Recall that, before I pointed out the widely used and accepted definition of hypermedia controls, and in particular that links and forms are hypermedia controls, you did not understand that concept, so you might spend some time quietly reflecting on that idea. It may help clarify things for you.

> Then JSON is just as much hypermedia as HTML. Both are structured text unusable without a specific client to display them or work with them.

As I have said and written previously (https://htmx.org/essays/hypermedia-clients/, https://hypermedia.systems/hypermedia-components/) I agree that a hypermedia client is necessary for a properly functioning hypermedia system that adheres to the uniform interface. However, I think that there is a good argument that Siren, for example, is hypermedia, even if it isn't being consumed correctly, just as I think HTML is hypermedia, even if someone is screen scraping it (i.e. not using a hypermedia client to consume it).

I don't think you can call those uses a hypermedia system, but I also don't think that changes the fact that the underlying formats, Siren & HTML, are hypermedia, due to the fact that they have hypermedia controls. That might be a subtle distinction, but I think it is a valid one. Again, perhaps as you reflect more on this concept, new to you, of hypermedia controls, the distinction will become easier to understand.

> They only invite them because of your insistence on calling only HTML the "natural hypermedia" etc.

I'm very sorry you that feel that way.

I would call HTML, "a natural hypermedia", rather than "the natural hypermedia". I would also call HXML & Siren natural hypermedia, due to the presence of hypermedia controls (a concept new to you) in their specifications.

Re: Is htmx Just Another JavaScript Framework?

#315

Post by recursivedoubts »

troupo wrote: post #313
recursivedoubts wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is english your first language? I feel like many of your objections, insofar as I can make sense of them, fall into language & semantic debates. The term HDA, which I coined and, therefore, feel like I have some ability to define, was created to contrast with the familiar SPA/Single Page Application acronym, which is a term used in web development. This is why I focus on the web with that article. As I have repeated…

> , fall into language & semantic debates. They don't. > that I do not believe that HTML is the only hypermedia in the world. For a person who doesn't believe that you sure spend a lot of time only talking about HTML and claiming that nothing else is hypermedia. And yes, I've quoted what you yourself say about this.

Are you able to acknowledge that I have said that both HXML & Siren are hypermedia? A simple yes or no will suffice.

Re: Is htmx Just Another JavaScript Framework?

#316

Post by recursivedoubts »

troupo wrote: post #312
recursivedoubts wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, this is just completely unreasonable of you. HTML is a natural hypermedia in that it has native hypermedia controls. JSON & XML are not natural hypermedia because they do not, however hypermedia controls can be added on top of them, as in the case of HXML/hyperview, which, again I include in my book on hypermedia systems . There are many other hypermedias, such as Siren, which uses JSON as a base, and I have neve…

> I hate to be rude but you didn't understand, or refused to acknowledge, the basic meaning and usage of the term 'hypermedia control' until I cited a W3C document using it. Just because you were correct in one small detail (citing a 2019 standard retrofitting definitions for the use in RDF etc.) doesn't make you correct in the grand scheme of things. > with baseless accusations of things I haven't said and don't bel…

> one small detail

the presence of hypermedia controls is a defining characteristic of a hypermedia format

> I literally quoted your own words at you.

You took an essay I wrote in which I defined the term HDA specifically to contrast with the term SPA in the context of web development and spun that into an imagined philosophy where HTML is the only hypermedia in the world. You persisted in this after I pointed out that I included HXML in my book on hypermedia, and gave a clear definition of what I consider the defining characteristics of hypermedia & clarified specific examples of other formats that are hypermedia.

You have confused "X is A" with "Only X is A" and then, when large gaps in your understanding of hypermedia have been brought to your attention, you have dismissed them as small details.

> I will not apologize

I did not expect you to.

At this point I think I have taken goodwill as far as it can go. I encourage any other readers who have made it to this point in this hellthread to simply read my essays & perhaps my book, and judge them on their own merits:

https://htmx.org/essays

https://hypermedia.systems

Re: Is htmx Just Another JavaScript Framework?

#317

Post by sharlos201068 »

bobthepanda wrote: post #205
nine_k wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But how about Web Components? Finally, it seems, there's something reusable, and something reasonably framework-neutral.

is it that nice? the beauty of HTML markup is that it's declarative. at least from the tutorials I've seen, WebComponents drag you firmly back into imperative land with document.addChild everywhere.

I'm pretty sure a declarative shadow Dom is currently in the works.

Re: Is htmx Just Another JavaScript Framework?

#318

Post by mxey »

pphysch wrote: post #139

How do HTMX users manage the complexity of endpoint dependency graphs? Once you go from simple route->page mapping to heavy HTMX usage, you now have routes that are implicitly dependent on other routes to work properly. "/users/42/" relies on hx-post="/users/42/send-email", and so on. Are there ways to model that dependency graph outside of your brain, say an IDE plugin.

You might like https://htmx.org/extensions/path-deps/
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