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He blew the whistle on Amazon. He's still paying the price

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Re: He blew the whistle on Amazon. He's still paying the price

#311

Post by s1artibartfast »

lots2learn wrote: post #309
s1artibartfast wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the reality is that past injustices can not be fixed. nothing would undo them, from an ethical or practical perspective. people need to agree on a path to move forward, taking into account the reality of the situation, and if they can, they have to accept the alternative. Palestinians have some moral high ground with respect to the nekba, as it was a disproportionate escalation. Israel has the highground with respect…

If we can all agree that UN resolutions and international law should allowed to be implemented, that would be a path forward better than what's currently happening.

There is a very long list of what would be better than the current status.

None of them can work until the Jews and Palestinians actually want to stop killing each other.

They are currently stuck in a prisoners dilemma.

Who knows, if you are an optimist, maybe the destruction of hamas will be through enough that a successor accepting of current boarders comes to power.

This is the only way I can imagine things moving forward.

Re: He blew the whistle on Amazon. He's still paying the price

#312

Post by krageon »

zaggynl wrote: post #87
krageon wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A prison that builds things is a factory. It's insight into the fact that in fact the norms are no different in the US.

I would assume the people working in the Chinese factory have _some_ time off to go outside said factory? Or have the ability to turn in their notice and leave for a different job? Agreed on the fact that both seem like a corporate hellhole one way or the other.

I honestly don't see the difference between a factory worker that works seven days a week and lives close to the factory (and doesn't travel, as that's for folks with free time and disposable income) and someone who is in prison. In both cases there is only a very small society that they are actually a part of and very limited personal autonomy. I know a lot of folks like to say the theoretical presence of choice means someone is free, but let us be honest here: When you are poor, you may have a choice of where you are imprisoned but that doesn't mean you can escape.

Re: He blew the whistle on Amazon. He's still paying the price

#313

Post by bawolff »

lots2learn wrote: post #308
bawolff wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What are the "other number of events"? Please be specific. Why? Its not relavent to my argument and a full history of the conflict wouldn't fit in a hn comment. I'm sure wikipedia has a big timeline of events of this conflict. I'm claiming your narrative of events could fit either side. Your narrative only mentioned ethnic cleansing once so i only need a single event to make it fit. There are sadly a number of even…

> Why? Its not relavent to my argument Your argument is that my statement framing the current conflict in Palestine as "A people were ethnically cleansed from the lands they lived on for centuries and those people continue to be oppressed and subjugated till this day, not only denied to return back to the lands they were expelled from, but continue until now to be forcibly expelled from the small amounts they remain…

Which part do you think doesn't fit?

I believe the example i gave does fit. I understand from your post that you disagree but i can't figure out what specificly about it makes you think it doesn't fit. What is the part that isn't fitting?

Re: He blew the whistle on Amazon. He's still paying the price

#314

Post by therealdrag0 »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #156
sgjohnson wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US constitution actually allows slavery/involuntary servitude as a punishment for a crime, as per the 13th amendment: > Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction. So it makes little sense to compare prison labour programs to "any other workplace".

> makes little sense to compare prison labour programs to "any other workplace" Either it's force labour, or it's not. You can't get away with things just by slapping a different label on them. > The US constitution actually allows slavery If a Chinese person posted here "actually all the human rights abuses in China are perfectly legal and in accordance with Chinese law" you would not be impressed. We wouldn't be li…

A parent forcing a child to do their chores is forced labor, but no one calls it that or slavery (except the kid :)). Context matters, and compulsion alone is not a rights or ethical violation.

Re: He blew the whistle on Amazon. He's still paying the price

#315

Post by hnfong »

krageon wrote: post #312
zaggynl wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would assume the people working in the Chinese factory have _some_ time off to go outside said factory? Or have the ability to turn in their notice and leave for a different job? Agreed on the fact that both seem like a corporate hellhole one way or the other.

I honestly don't see the difference between a factory worker that works seven days a week and lives close to the factory (and doesn't travel, as that's for folks with free time and disposable income) and someone who is in prison. In both cases there is only a very small society that they are actually a part of and very limited personal autonomy. I know a lot of folks like to say the theoretical presence of choice mea…

What you say is true, but unless you have a way to eliminate poverty, the moral imperative doesn't provide a solution.

It doesn't make sense to outlaw poor people. And paradoxically, at least under context of international trade, the only sustainable way to get poor countries out of poverty is for richer countries to trade with them.

Re: He blew the whistle on Amazon. He's still paying the price

#316

Post by MrVandemar »

aembleton wrote: post #209
MrVandemar wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what I do struggle to understand is that Western companies apparently DO NOT CARE. Here's what it is: in law corporations are essentially given a weird kind of personhood. It's that way so corporations can get things done. Unfortunately, corporations aren't people: they don't care, they don't have ethics, they don't have morals, they don't have values, they don't have family, they don't have a conscience. It's not…

> they don't have ethics, they don't have morals, they don't have values, they don't have family, they don't have a conscience. Corporations aren't people but they are run and managed by people. I'd like to think that they have ethics, morals and a conscience.

They don't. Companies are structures that attract and reward sociopaths and narcissists, and they're designed to maximise profit. Normal people aren't given the opportunity to weild any kind of power, but people with low empathy and high charisma scores, straight to the top!

Re: He blew the whistle on Amazon. He's still paying the price

#317

Post by zmgsabst »

free652 wrote: post #172
zmgsabst wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to statistics, too: 2:1 civilian:Hamas ratio according to the IDF, with 5000 from Hamas dead and 10,000 civilians dead [0]; Gaza’s population is about half under 18 [1]. So if you figure deaths among civilians are random, then about 5,000 Gazans under 18 are dead. [0] - https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/05/middleeast/israel-hamas-m... [1] - https://www.npr.org/2023/10/18/1206897328/half-of-gazas-popu...

I can read and suggest for you to do the same when providing sources: From [0]: >The Israeli military has not officially published any estimates of those killed.

Apparently you can’t read the second paragraph.

> The AFP news agency first reported the Israeli assessment on Monday, citing a briefing for foreign media by senior Israeli military officials. Asked about reports that about 5,000 Hamas militants had been killed since October 7, one of the officials replied, according to AFP: “The numbers are more or less right.”

Re: He blew the whistle on Amazon. He's still paying the price

#318

Post by sgjohnson »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #156
sgjohnson wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US constitution actually allows slavery/involuntary servitude as a punishment for a crime, as per the 13th amendment: > Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction. So it makes little sense to compare prison labour programs to "any other workplace".

> makes little sense to compare prison labour programs to "any other workplace" Either it's force labour, or it's not. You can't get away with things just by slapping a different label on them. > The US constitution actually allows slavery If a Chinese person posted here "actually all the human rights abuses in China are perfectly legal and in accordance with Chinese law" you would not be impressed. We wouldn't be li…

I’m pretty sure that most countries allow forced labour as a punishment for a crime.

In my native Latvia, a member of the EU, it’s the most commonly handed out criminal punishment. x hours of unpaid public work. Typically on a strict schedule. Or you can go to the can if you’re opposed to such “slavery”.

Oh and yes, there are also labour programs in our prisons that are probably comparable to the ones in the US. An easy sell actually, because you can either

1. fill your day by doing some work in horrible conditions for basically no pay, but you get to do something

2. rot in your cell all day long

I’m pretty sure that most people pick option 1. After all, you need a way to buy cigarettes.

Nobody calls this slavery.

We also have mandatory military service that started this year. I’m happy to call this slavery, because it’s imposed on people that haven’t done anything wrong.

But you seriously can’t compare forced labour as a punishment for a crime vs any other workplace. It’s disingenious for very obvious reasons. Why not go a step further? Why not claim that it’s a human rights violation to incarcerate people in the first place? After all, the universal declaration of human rights says that EVERYONE has the right to leave their country, re-enter it, and freely move about in their own country, and this is a “universal human right” that’s so clearly being denied to prisoners.

So forgive the international reader like myself for seeing nothing morally wrong with this state of affairs.

Re: He blew the whistle on Amazon. He's still paying the price

#319

Post by bin_bash »

keiferski wrote: post #59
PaulKeeble wrote: post #16

My experience of whistleblowing even here in the west is that usually it goes very very badly. The only real thing open to you is to refuse to do anything unethical, quit and walk away. Many people can't afford to do that. Things ought to be different but we live in corrupt societies where the law is different for the rich and powerful than for everyone else.

I encourage anyone interested in the consequences of whistleblowing to watch The Insider. A truly excellent film about a whistleblower at a tobacco company and the terrible things they did to try and stop him. Russell Crowe, Al Pacino, Bruce McGill, Christopher Plummer, many others. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Wigand Trailer: https://youtu.be/MGOb29aePyc The best scene: https://youtu.be/gNKmmA6_oTQ

watched it based on this suggestion, really enjoyed it!
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