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My Left Kidney

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311–320 of 325 posts

Re: My Left Kidney

#311

This does honestly kind of shock me, it’s respectable that he did something like this for a random person but I could never imagine myself doing it for anyone except close family. I used to think EA was some kooky AI safety Cult but if so many EA folks donate their kidney, my opinion of them has improved far more. They at least have balls!

not meaning to attack you on this point--it's your life and you can do what you want--but why would you only consider being a donor for your family? i'm guessing the reason might be 1) you have some condition and you're worried about your health (in which case you might not be an elligible donor anyway) or 2) you're worried about surgery complications or long-term health impacts. but the impacts to your health are us…

I think that one of Effective Altruism's axioms - that all lives are equally valuable - is not accepted by much of the population.

The number of people that would rush into a building to save a family member is likely far higher than the number of people that would rush into a building to save a stranger.

Re: My Left Kidney

#312
post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody really objects to them holding conferences. (At least not too many people do.) Renting venues for the conferences vs buying a venue seems like a straightforward financial calculation one can make and decide on fairly objectively. If you want to have a moral discussion, we should probably talk about what kind of venues conferences should be held at; not on whose balance sheets the assets are held.

Sure. I don’t object to them doing anything they want, but if you tag yourself as an “altruist” (effective or not) then other people’s opinions and perspectives are at the very core who you are (or pretend to be). The idea is that they “don’t care” because they believe the numbers, and the numbers only; if the numbers are telling you did the right thing, then it doesn’t matter what people think, right? Well yes, if y…

> I don’t object to them doing anything they want, but if you tag yourself as an “altruist” (effective or not) then other people’s opinions and perspectives are at the very core who you are (or pretend to be).

I don't understand that. You can eg measure relatively easily and relatively objectively how many people die from malaria and how many life years that cost.

Re: My Left Kidney

#313
post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Organ donation is inherently picky and fallible: without that pickiness, you get coerced organ donation [...] What is your evidence for this claim?

The international organ trade[1], for one. Survival is our strongest instinct; otherwise reasonable people will do reprehensible things to stay alive. (There’s also familial coercion, but that wasn’t present in this case presumably.) [1]: https://sgp.fas.org/crs/row/R46996.pdf

That international organ trade still operates as a black market. So it's hard to compare that with being less picky about organ donors.

The very pdf you linked to even mentions 'Reducing U.S. Demand for Trafficked Organs' as one of the policy avenues to pursue to help combat trafficking of organs. Being less picky about donors in the US seems exactly like what you'd need to do to reduce that kind of demand.

You might also want to look into the situation in Iran, where financial compensation for organ donors is legal.

Re: My Left Kidney

#314
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Iran allows paying compensation to kidney donors. You can study how they are doing. Hint: they don't have much of a wait list. > I do not like the thought of desperate people selling their internal organs to survive one bit. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repugnant_market Do you prefer desperate people have fewer options? Especially, do you prefer taking options from people that they prefer to take?

You can justify anything with that argument, no matter how horrific. Why not permit people to allow themselves be killed in entertaining ways, for a pay per view audience, with their surviving family getting 80% of the proceeds? It's possible that that would be the most money they will ever "earn". Don't you want to give poor people as many options as possible?

> Why not permit people to allow themselves be killed in entertaining ways, for a pay per view audience, with their surviving family getting 80% of the proceeds?

We already allow shades of that, and society hasn't collapsed.

Ie we seldom allow people to consent to outright death, but we certainly allow them to take on a great deal of risk of injury or death in return for fame or money. If you repeat a 1% chance often enough, you are going to hit the jackpot sooner or later.

So I'm not sure your reductio ad absurdum works here.

Re: My Left Kidney

#315
post #307

I skimmed over this so I am unsure if this was addressed in the article: what if you donate an organ to an asshole? If they're weak or sickly, there is less chance of them being an asshole. However, a recovered and healthy asshole has relatively greater chance of subjecting the world to themselves. The above may appear to be a crude (and maybe overly harsh and pessimistic) argument against organ donation, but I strug…

Some people suck. Some people need kidneys. Some people who need kidneys are people that suck. I guess the answer to your question lies in whether you believe that humans are predisposed towards good or evil. Evolutionarily the argument goes that humans are predisposed towards cooperation (i.e. good) which also seems to be backed up by archeological evidence (e.g. unremarkable individuals clearly being cared for up t…

> Evolutionarily the argument goes that humans are predisposed towards cooperation (i.e. good) which also seems to be backed up by archeological evidence (e.g. unremarkable individuals clearly being cared for up to old age despite evident disabilities or injuries that would have made them unable to contribute to the group's survival).

Animals developed cooperative behaviors because selective pressures rewarded the development of these behaviors for populations, but I don't think this helps us assume anything about one person's predisposition for cooperation. We can make assumptions about behavior for an individual on average based on their past actions and assumed personality characteristics. I'd like to believe that it means something to be human (ideologically, philosophically, morally, ethically etc.), but it's hard to judge what it means for other people or another person when their decision making is distorted by either past trauma or cognitive biases (I fall to this myself). Ideally, one should reciprocate the behavior one is afforded. But as you said, societal pressures sometimes do make good behavior harder to afford.

For organ donation most people donate organs because they want their death to mean something, or they do it while they're living because they make the assumption that they probably won't need two kidneys or a whole liver during the rest of their life (bad assumption given the standard American lifestyle and diet, maybe non-Americans might have better luck here). If they want to do it, whatever. For most people, a relatively healthy body and mind is their most useful asset..

I'll never encourage someone to donate organs while they're living, and even less after their death because they lose autonomy over their body. Why does post-death autonomy matter? For sentient, conscious and intelligent beings post-death autonomy is an extension of their pre-death conciousness. The rights of an individual don't and shouldn't end at their death, I think. If we don't help eachother in life and live selfishly, I don't see how and why death changes that? If the idea is that doing selfless deeds will beget more selflessness..um not in my experience, sadly. There's an entrenched individualistic tendency (almost bordering on solipsism) which often makes the receiver of the selfless deed believe that "they got something good because they're special", and not that someone else did something selfless. I think this individualistic tendency also prevents "passing it on", as you were hoping the receiver of a selfless deed might do. So I think for organ donation, if every reciever is automatically and irrevocably enrolled in organ donation themselves, then I wouldn't mind donating organs or encouraging other people to do it.

Re: My Left Kidney

#316

"But looking more closely at the increased deaths, they were mostly from autoimmune diseases that couldn’t plausibly be related to their donations." Kidneys make calcitriol. One kidney means you'll make less, and if you don't supplement, you'll become deficient. Deficiency would (possibly) lead to autoimmune diseases. Also EPO (erythropoietin). One kidney means less, and less (possibly) means fewer new red blood cell…

I was born with one kidney, a condition called renal agenesis. I’m 53 years old and in perfect health. Doctors don’t recommend any particular action. As an aside, I’m also Buddhist so if the kidney goes I’m going with it. This obsession with prolonging life is just a distraction from living it.

> This obsession with prolonging life is just a distraction from living it.

Does brushing teeth twice a day also distract you from living?

I think the opposite.

Re: My Left Kidney

#317
post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can justify anything with that argument, no matter how horrific. Why not permit people to allow themselves be killed in entertaining ways, for a pay per view audience, with their surviving family getting 80% of the proceeds? It's possible that that would be the most money they will ever "earn". Don't you want to give poor people as many options as possible?

> Why not permit people to allow themselves be killed in entertaining ways, for a pay per view audience, with their surviving family getting 80% of the proceeds? We already allow shades of that, and society hasn't collapsed. Ie we seldom allow people to consent to outright death, but we certainly allow them to take on a great deal of risk of injury or death in return for fame or money. If you repeat a 1% chance often…

We certainly do allow such activities (MMA fights, extreme sports competitions etc). But such activities are fundamentally different in my view. While risky, they are not designed to permanently damage the competitor. If a participant emerges victorious and unscathed, they can enter next year's competition. That's not the case with selling a kidney (nor with my admittedly extreme example above).

Re: My Left Kidney

#318
post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. I don’t object to them doing anything they want, but if you tag yourself as an “altruist” (effective or not) then other people’s opinions and perspectives are at the very core who you are (or pretend to be). The idea is that they “don’t care” because they believe the numbers, and the numbers only; if the numbers are telling you did the right thing, then it doesn’t matter what people think, right? Well yes, if y…

> I don’t object to them doing anything they want, but if you tag yourself as an “altruist” (effective or not) then other people’s opinions and perspectives are at the very core who you are (or pretend to be). I don't understand that. You can eg measure relatively easily and relatively objectively how many people die from malaria and how many life years that cost.

Yes, but you can’t measure objectively the context around these people and what causes that to happen. Why do so many people die of malaria in certain places but not on others? That points to the fact that it is actually possible to avoid these deaths, with the right effort. Then you might be tempted to think: well they don’t have the money to handle it, or the know-how; then you send them money and you send them specialists and you realize it doesn’t change anything. At this point you might be thinking: if they get money and support to deal with the problem, why are they not doing it? Jumping from this to some sort of racist/Darwinist conclusion is then almost inevitable, if you are naive enough to think that the numbers explain everything. There is a very complex social-historical-cultural system of multiple intertwined factors that go way beyond the numbers when it comes to “altruism”. It is human. Relying on the numbers is just a way for people to a) think of themselves as better than other “non-effective” altruists, b) mask their prejudice with “it’s not me, it’s the numbers saying you’re inferior”, and c) to just circle jerk and find themselves two/three girlfriends at the same time. It’s not that different than right-wing ngo-hating bigots really.

Re: My Left Kidney

#319
post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don’t object to them doing anything they want, but if you tag yourself as an “altruist” (effective or not) then other people’s opinions and perspectives are at the very core who you are (or pretend to be). I don't understand that. You can eg measure relatively easily and relatively objectively how many people die from malaria and how many life years that cost.

Yes, but you can’t measure objectively the context around these people and what causes that to happen. Why do so many people die of malaria in certain places but not on others? That points to the fact that it is actually possible to avoid these deaths, with the right effort. Then you might be tempted to think: well they don’t have the money to handle it, or the know-how; then you send them money and you send them spe…

For example, East Germany and North Korea had and have vastly inferior outcomes to West Germany and South Korea. No racism or darwinism required to see that.

I'm not sure why you are so confident that racist conclusions are inevitable? You also seem to suggest that the facts are racist, but that we have to blind our minds to that reality?

> [...] if you are naive enough to think that the numbers explain everything.

Our knowledge, including our quantitative knowledge, is very limited, but it is not zero either. There are some areas where numbers explain enough.

And, of course, just because numbers don't explain everything perfectly doesn't mean that our personal non-numeric pet theory is automatically any better.

Re: My Left Kidney

#320
post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

selling kidneys doesn't preclude us having the same thorough screening process we have now, although it means there may be people who try harder to game the screening process. i just don't see kidney donation as being a significant enough harm to outweigh the harm of the recipient not getting the kidney. if we're worried about people being financially desperate, we should allow organs to be sold and build a stronger…

> selling kidneys doesn't preclude us having the same thorough screening process we have now, although it means there may be people who try harder to game the screening process. Nothing I have said really even touches on the topic that that safety could be impacted by people trying to game the screening process, though it is of course a legitimate concern. > i just don't see kidney donation as being a significant eno…

I agree, and would extend your point even further. Drafting people into the army against their will is a grave harm, for obvious reasons. But the existence of a "volunteer" army that nevertheless gets paid for their participation represents no less financial coercion. People on a financial precipice, given the option to join the army, might take it -- and thus increase their risk of being shot or blown up abroad. Removing those payments removes that coercion.

I was originally going to post this as a facile gotcha, until I thought about it slightly harder and realized that effectively disbanding the military would actually be a pretty good idea, all considered. However, I would still argue that we should accept monetary rewards for altruistic yet dangerous acts, like fighting fires and rescuing cats from trees (and donating kidneys).

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