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Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

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Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#311

Post by rnk »

credit_guy wrote: post #301
gmane wrote: post #5

Anyone who has followed hydrogen as a fuel for a while sees pretty easily that its a solution in search of a problem. It really doesn't make sense to use renewables to make hydrogen fuel to then burn: batteries are better for storage of energy in most cases (I will grant that there are edge cases where a liquid/gas fuel is a better technical solution than batteries, but I think that options like ethanol are probably…

> batteries are better for storage of energy in most cases That's not true. There are two main storage cases: from day to night and from summer to winter. Because there are 365 days and nights in a year and only one summer and one winter, a battery for seasonal storage needs to be 365 times cheaper than one for daily storage to break even after the same number of years. Of course, there are no batteries that are 365…

Can you explain why existing batteries don't store energy well? I don't have to use energy to crack natural gas or water. I don't have to worry about the hydrogen leaking out and catching into an invisible fire. I don't have to carry around a tank with enormous pressure, because the hydrogen isn't very dense as an energy source.

I could just say we'll solve all problems with green batteries. We can recycle batteries at > 95% of materials already. We have lifepo4 batteries that are stable, don't have cobalt and be charge up to 100% without destroying them. In reality I don't have to point to some unknown incredible improvements in the future, they work today.

I see hydrogen as the oil industrial complex and diesel & ice industrial complexes wanting to maintain all their infrastructure that burns fuel for engines. It makes sense from their standpoint.

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#312

Post by otabdeveloper4 »

jackvalentine wrote: post #74
otabdeveloper4 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Putting two tons of highly toxic and flammable lithium into a car-shaped object just to commute one person a few dozen miles is quite literally insane from all practical points of view. Our ancestors will never believe that we were nuts enough to not only allow this, but actually legally manndate it. They will think it's an urban legend and no ancient people could have been so short-sighted and egotistical.

The insane bit when you look at it logically is the car shaped object part - we drive around in and store portable living rooms.

Yes, but also the moral crusade to replace "shitty way to live and move around" with "equally shitty way to live and move around, but with a different set of externalities" is equally insane.

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#313

Post by otabdeveloper4 »

elihu wrote: post #307
rootusrootus wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The FAA has studied this. LFPs are an order of magnitude less prone to fire, and less intense when they do. There are some fun videos out there put together by fire departments testing various battery chemistries. It's fairly easy to make a regular modern lithium ion battery erupt in flame. It's hard to get LFP to do much more than release the magic smoke. And LTO batteries, which are another variety, don't even smok…

I was aware that internal combustion cars catch fire more often. There's a bit of a compensatory difference in severity: EVs don't catch fire as often, but it's especially bad when they do. But hopefully we can quickly move past the era of super-flammable EV batteries even if actual EV fires are rare. I look forward to kicking fossil fuel based cars out of everywhere for reasons unrelated to safety. Or you could say…

The negative externalities of the large-scale strip-mining and fossil-fuel-burning effort to convert all cars to electric will not improve the collective safety of life on Earth.

Also, remember that lithium is also a fossil fuel. Electicity is not magic, you're just replacing one fossil fuel with another.

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#314

Post by rocqua »

rnk wrote: post #311
credit_guy wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> batteries are better for storage of energy in most cases That's not true. There are two main storage cases: from day to night and from summer to winter. Because there are 365 days and nights in a year and only one summer and one winter, a battery for seasonal storage needs to be 365 times cheaper than one for daily storage to break even after the same number of years. Of course, there are no batteries that are 365…

Can you explain why existing batteries don't store energy well? I don't have to use energy to crack natural gas or water. I don't have to worry about the hydrogen leaking out and catching into an invisible fire. I don't have to carry around a tank with enormous pressure, because the hydrogen isn't very dense as an energy source. I could just say we'll solve all problems with green batteries. We can recycle batteries…

For seasonal storage, because you cycle then so rarely, and demand between charging and discharging is so different, the economics favor low cost per kwh solutions, and care much less about efficiency.

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#315

Post by theshrike79 »

b112 wrote: post #268
theshrike79 wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Existing gaslines" won't work because hydrogen leaks. It's literally the smallest molecule in the universe. Very different from natural gas. Also you need around 55kWh of electricity to get 11kWh of power out of a Toyota Mirai's wheels to the ground. It'd be more efficient just to send that 55kWh to a waiting plugged in EV using existing power lines. As for "slow charge", you're behind on tech. The current Hyundai/K…

Existing gaslines" won't work because hydrogen leaks. It's literally the smallest molecule in the universe. Very different from natural gas. It works just fine. The British did studies in the early 2000s, injecting h2 into Ng lines, and separating it back out at the other end with mebranes. Also you need around 55kWh of electricity to get 11kWh of power out of a Toyota Mirai's wheels to the ground. It'd be more effic…

Direct electric is still more efficient than green hydrogen even if you take into account all the losses[0]. The amount of loses just during electrolysis and transportation make it clear. EV overall efficiency is 77% from production to engine. H2 is 33%. And this is based partially on 10 year old studies.

Batteries and charging have developed since then, but as far as I know there haven't been any huge leaps in electrolysis processes.

What about countries who don't have an extensive gas pipeline infrastructure? Should they spend "about 100 trillion dollars" building one so they can take part in the H2 revolution?

The US is pretty unique in how your pipeline structure is built vs how ancient even essential parts of your electric grid is. This combined with a legal structure that allows gas pipelines to be built pretty freely vs everyone who can see a new power line can complain about it makes stuff really hard to upgrade.

[0] https://cleantechnica.com/2021/02/01/chart-why-battery-elect...

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#316

Post by rocqua »

tcfhgj wrote: post #306
credit_guy wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> batteries are better for storage of energy in most cases That's not true. There are two main storage cases: from day to night and from summer to winter. Because there are 365 days and nights in a year and only one summer and one winter, a battery for seasonal storage needs to be 365 times cheaper than one for daily storage to break even after the same number of years. Of course, there are no batteries that are 365…

Summer to winter isn't a real storage case. If you need more energy in the winter, you build more wind power, not PV to store it an entire year. And episodes of little wind+sun have a duration of less than a month. And there are more storage use cases, e.g. short term grid stabilization (<1 second).

You cannot reasonably dimension wind power to serve the winter heating needs of northern Europe. Once you get halfway there you're summer surpluses get so huge, inefficient seasonal storage becomes a much better solution.

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#317

Post by theshrike79 »

earthboundkid wrote: post #252
theshrike79 wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a problem, because there's limited capacity to move electricity between the systems. You can just plug them together, they have essentially two separate grids.

I think it would be a problem if they had ten tiny grids, but is two decently sized grids that are in roughly the same time zone (so peak solar doesn’t need to go from A to B) a big deal?

It is when a 1500MW nuclear power plant built in area A is essentially useless for anyone in area B.

Yes, you can transform from 50Hz to 60Hz, but the capacity is limited and can't be grown infinitely.

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#318

Post by theshrike79 »

alexfromapex wrote: post #305
wilg wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, we have a power grid and not a hydrogen grid.

Hydrogen can be created from water and electricity

It can yes, but the efficiency is laughable. It's only viable when you've got essentially free renewables AND you've filled every battery you can.

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#319

Post by theshrike79 »

ninkendo wrote: post #279
rootusrootus wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They will definitely care collectively as the roads deteriorate faster and they have to pay more in tax dollars and wasted time spent in construction to repair them, but that will end up being a tragedy of the commons The difference in wear between a 3600 pound RAV4 and a 4400 pound Model Y is so minor that it'll disappear in the noise. Nobody will notice. The only time it'll even come close to mattering is on resi…

I mean, if we’re picking models to support our points, I’d counter with the Hummer EV which is 9,630 lbs. Road wear goes up with the 4th power of weight, so doubling the weight increases road wear 16x… it’s not something we should just ignore.

That Hummer also does 0-60 in 3 seconds. Imagine the amount of damage it can do just going all out from traffic lights and crashing into someone...

It's like someone took America and distilled it into an EV :D

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#320

Post by theshrike79 »

ben_w wrote: post #264
LtWorf wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There isn't enough infrastructure to power all the eventual electric cars.

This is one reason I like to suggest putting PV onto cars directly, even though normal shaped cars will only get 8-12 miles of extra range per day from this, and even though the surface of a vehicle is one of the worst places for PV cells: 8-12 miles per vehicle per day makes a big difference to the overall infrastructure requirements.

Small scale plants are the key when the grid is either unreliable or insufficient.

It's not much of an issue to have, say, a 1000kWh battery with some small/medium scale solar or wind power feeding it. Or even the grid if there's extra.

Then everyone around that battery uses it primarily for their energy needs and only when it runs out they tap into the larger grid.

The only thing solar panels on cars are good for is keeping the AC running in the summer so the car (and battery) are cool at all times.

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