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Boys and Men in the United States Are Struggling. The Left Should Talk About It

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Re: Boys and Men in the United States Are Struggling. The Left Should Talk About It

#311

Recently the CDC shared an analysis on suicide statistics. As one might expect, they concluded that there's disparities between demographics. And so they dutifully listed them: LGBTQ+, indigenous people, vets, various other groups. Except for that one stat staring them in the face. The chart to crush all other charts. MEN. Whom commit suicide at a rate of 5x compared to women, and rising. That chart was not included…

how much of the difference is attempts vs successful? Men tend to be more successful, as I understand it - I doubt that it would account for the entire discrepency, but might reduce the gap a little

Re: Boys and Men in the United States Are Struggling. The Left Should Talk About It

#312
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you unpack this a bit? My recollection is that the program was initiated in 2014, with substantial contributions from private organizations. It was further funded in 2015 with more private sector contributions. I believe it was shut down when Trump was inaugurated.

Drawing a parallel between "left talking to boys" and "my brother's keeper being originally hyper-targeting AA boys in inner city areas but then being expanded to every group under the sun" calling out why its not effective. Through the 4th wave feminist lens, anything that helps men (or a subgroup of men) alone is by definition evil. Making it all inclusive kept the name only but it lost the ability to help those in…

> Through the 4th wave feminist lens, anything that helps men (or a subgroup of men) alone is by definition evil

This is absolutely absurd nonsense. Good god.

Re: Boys and Men in the United States Are Struggling. The Left Should Talk About It

#313
post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ok, fair enough; now the counterfactual is, what if females disproportionately committed suicide? It's pretty clear that it would be diagnosed on the left as related to toxic masculinity too. This is not at all clear to me. Women are actually more likely to attempt suicide then men, yet men are more likely to succeed. If what you say is true we should already be able to observe the phenomenon you describe. So where…

Looks like this issue in particular is not being discussed politically. The closest I can find is that it's explained by depression in women, which in turn is partially explained (search for culture) as I've expected: https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/depression/in...

That's.... quite a reach your making. Both writing off the causes in that article as just "toxic masculinity", and describing a mayo clinic article on depression as "the left"

Re: Boys and Men in the United States Are Struggling. The Left Should Talk About It

#314
post #292
post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see even a metaphor of “overpowering”, “strength in numbers” as deeply problematic because it is indicative of paradigm and world view. This goes beyond signaling and messaging. It’s difficult to be aware of one’s own paradigm, let alone to change it. It’s not as if I have a good solution to this. If I did, I would be writing about it. So far, the person who seems to be able to articulate and implement this I have…

what does she talk about? i am seriously interested, because i am more interested in achieving the desired result, not how we get there (unless there is a problem with the approach, like you seem to see here, so i would like to explore alternatives)

She talks about paradigms and world views, about how those can build on each other. This is important because often times, the really difficult problems are found outside of the current paradigm. It's when one can think in the other paradigm, that some things become possible ... but it also makes communication difficult because it takes a long time for someone's paradigm and world view to shift. Once that is in place, there are things like "nodal interventions" to help accelerate things.

Most of her writings and podcasts are geared towards business, but she wrote one book called _Regenerative Life_.

I don't know how exactly that applies to social structures, but "beat to fit, paint to match" is not it.

I'm approaching my understanding of it from the ecology and permaculture side of things. It's really easy to think in terms of, kill all the weeds, kill all the pests, maximize yields, etc. because that is part of the normative, mainstream paradigm. It requires a big shift into becoming a part of the ecology and designing things in that way. But letting the ecology grow, live, die, and heal on its own without as much direct intervention is how you get to a place where the system is resilient and adaptive, and yields something for humans along with all the other participant of the ecology.

Re: Boys and Men in the United States Are Struggling. The Left Should Talk About It

#315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The overwhelming way the left talks about it is in terms of "toxic" masculinity or through the perspective of feminism. The latter is a valid perspective, but dominates the discourse which is hardly a balanced approach.

[flagged]

Please don't use HN for ideological battle. This is in the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.

Re: Boys and Men in the United States Are Struggling. The Left Should Talk About It

#317
post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looks like this issue in particular is not being discussed politically. The closest I can find is that it's explained by depression in women, which in turn is partially explained (search for culture) as I've expected: https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/depression/in...

That's.... quite a reach your making. Both writing off the causes in that article as just "toxic masculinity", and describing a mayo clinic article on depression as "the left"

The article lists potential societal causes, among other things. The fact that Mayo is not "the left" if anything makes my point stronger. If this is the "institutional" view, imagine the actual left-wing view (that I was too lazy to google)!

An institution that is barely left leaning describes one of the major causes of female depression (in turn a major cause of suicide) as being, to use a shorthand, patriarchy - i.e. some problem with men. The causes of increased suicides in men, as far as I've read, are also various problems with men.

Which is exactly the point I was making... see also, violence and incarceration, etc.

Re: Boys and Men in the United States Are Struggling. The Left Should Talk About It

#318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Extreme "pranks"? Hazing culture? Omerta? Gang culture? Wolf of Wall Street / Boiler Room culture?The thin blue line? Church scandals? Basically every domestic terrorist group in history? Four common patterns * Recruitment techniques based around achieving worth by emulating some "alpha" male, usually physical and financial, sometimes spiritual * Approval associated with risk taking behavior. Binge drinking, criminal…

I can come up with just as many harmful actions perpetuated by women and yet we don't have "toxic femininity". Thats the key difference. This line is complete trash: "recruiting him to do something he has no interest in doing otherwise". This is probably the greatest example of the lefts insanity nowadays. How do you know he isn't interested? You know nothing about my family but you assume and then push for policy us…

We have toxic feminism. It doesn’t get as much air time, perhaps because of the power imbalances between men and women in society. But it’s there and it is discussed.

Re: Boys and Men in the United States Are Struggling. The Left Should Talk About It

#319
post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's.... quite a reach your making. Both writing off the causes in that article as just "toxic masculinity", and describing a mayo clinic article on depression as "the left"

The article lists potential societal causes, among other things. The fact that Mayo is not "the left" if anything makes my point stronger. If this is the "institutional" view, imagine the actual left-wing view (that I was too lazy to google)! An institution that is barely left leaning describes one of the major causes of female depression (in turn a major cause of suicide) as being, to use a shorthand, patriarchy - i…

> The article lists potential societal causes, among other things. The fact that Mayo is not "the left" if anything makes my point stronger.

If so then I must have missed your point. Because it seemed like you were making a point about the left jumping to conclusions. Not accepting studied medical literature. Does "the right" not think any of the causes the Mayo clinic lists are legitimate causes? Which ones? Where can I learn about this?

> If this is the "institutional" view, imagine the actual left-wing view

No. Plenty of people spend lots of time imaging what "the others" believe. It's rarely leads to an accurate view.

Re: Boys and Men in the United States Are Struggling. The Left Should Talk About It

#320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you get out in front of the messaging, and control it, right wing shock-jock culture warriors have no ammo. The GOP has won lots of elections simply because their media messaging is on point, consistent as hell, and repetitive. I don't think those 2 points match up. You can get out in front of the messaging but you will not deprive right wing shock jock culture warriors of ammo. As you say, their messaging is co…

"I Heard It Before, So It Must Be True."

“Lots of People are Saying…” or “People Keep Telling Me…”, too
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