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Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

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Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#311

Post by scottiebarnes »

vasco wrote: post #273
scottiebarnes wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah actually a union can help with all of those things. That's why police are unionized, as well as most team sport elite athletes (players unions). And they like the power it gives them, which is why you never hear them talk badly about it.

I didn't ask If, I asked How, and I'd be surprised if you can find any examples.

You don't think unions negotiate work terms such as wages, working hours, conditions, etc.?

What are some of the reasons you think a labor union would form in the first place?

Have you ever heard of mandatory break requirements in certain industries? Think those ideas came from business owners?

"The National Labor Union was founded on August 20, 1866, in Baltimore, Maryland. It was the first attempt to create a national labor group in the United States and one of their first actions was the first national call for Congress to mandate an 8-hour work day."

https://guides.loc.gov/this-month-in-business-history/august...

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#312

Post by AnimalMuppet »

dfxm12 wrote: post #181
baron816 wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions have also perpetuated racism, sexism, xenophobia, organized crime, government corruption, etc. It’s not all sunshine and lollipops. America abandoned unions for a reason.

America abandoned unions for a reason. It's been a concerted effort of corporate capitalists: buying & influencing media outlets, lobbying, offshoring, etc.

So? Unions also bought and influenced media outlets. They also lobbied. It's not like unions just sat there while management poisoned the country's mind against unions.

Unions were not able to make a compelling case. They had every chance to do so, starting with them being the default option in many industries.

America abandoned unions for a reason. It may have taken a concerted effort by corporate capitalists to get there, but that's not why. "Why" is because more and more people felt that the unions were not a net positive for them.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#313

Post by neotrope »

itsoktocry wrote: post #34
alphazard wrote: post #22

Don't unions work best in fields where quality is very uniform and expertise counts for very little? I'm thinking about low skilled jobs that can be mastered in months or years. Unions create salary progression, and benefits for seniority where there is otherwise no reason for them to exist. When no one does anything better than anyone else, it makes sense to negotiate as a block, individuals have no power. Now compa…

> The best engineers are worth literally 10x the worst engineers Uh, I'm pretty sure the best employees in any field are worth 10x what the worst employees are, whether you're writing code, assembling a car or gutting fish. The economics of labour suggest unions are most valuable where there's a monopsony buyer of labour. Big Tech might fit that bill, especially when we know they colluded to depress salaries.

> Uh, I'm pretty sure the best employees in any field are worth 10x what the worst employees are, whether you're writing code, assembling a car or gutting fish.

This is a big misconception. The difference is whether 10x talent is more valuable than 1x talent. You could be the worlds best fish gutter, but if you can't gut 10x more fish than the next guy, then your salary is capped and you're wasting your talent. In software, you can be 10x more productive than the next guy.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#314

Post by booleandilemma »

idiotsecant wrote: post #209
consz wrote: post #196

It’s absolutely incredible to me how much animosity unions have in the US and how self defeating the typical programmers attitude is (maybe this is just selection bias for HN?) — and I say this as someone who’s definitely not a laborer. But if I was one, I would hope I wouldn’t vote against my own class interests like it appears developers often do. Luckily, even speaking openly against my own interests here is zero…

Its a mix of crabs in a pot and 'f u I got mine' syndrome. I've largely given up trying to convince HN readers that tech work in the future will be the modern equivalent of bricklaying and will need its own protection for workers. Workers enjoy a high demand now and think that will always be the case but blacksmiths and telegraph operators thought so too.

And the best time to set such a union up is while we're in a strong position. Why wait until we're competing with AI?

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#315

Post by eaton »

alphazard wrote: post #22

Don't unions work best in fields where quality is very uniform and expertise counts for very little? I'm thinking about low skilled jobs that can be mastered in months or years. Unions create salary progression, and benefits for seniority where there is otherwise no reason for them to exist. When no one does anything better than anyone else, it makes sense to negotiate as a block, individuals have no power. Now compa…

Unions don’t exist so that people you consider unskilled will get raises. Unions exist so that people who sell their labor can cooperate to influence the conditions they work in.

If you consider nothing more important than your own individual compensation, and have absolute faith in your own irreplaceable genius, it’s easy to make a case against unions — sort of like “there is no prisoner’s dilemma, why would I ever cooperate?”

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#316

Post by lapcat »

nordsieck wrote: post #303
shortrounddev2 wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions are democratic organizations. If those things are important to you, you can speak up at a union meeting

> Unions are democratic organizations In my experience, democratic organizations are complete garbage. Every experience I've had with local government/HOAs has been a disappointing at best. I get that some democratic organizations are necessary. But adding more voluntarily seems to be at best a necessary evil, not something to list as a positive.

> Every experience I've had with local government/HOAs has been a disappointing at best.

As far as I'm aware, most HOAs were imposed from above by the home builder rather than coming into existence via grassroots organization of the home owners.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#318

Post by FrustratedMonky »

infecto wrote: post #8
FrustratedMonky wrote: post #5

Tech workers are usually so buried, heads hunched over the keyboard, focused on the latest project, that they aren't even aware they are being used. They straiten their back one day, look around, and realize they've been working for 20 years and getting nowhere. They got good enough raises, but forgot inflation, and it was really nothing.

In what country? Software engineers have some incredible pay for pretty low effort in the last 15years. Even before that it was a pretty decent living for most of the time pretty non-unique software. We are talking about them as an exploited working class, wild to me.

80 hour weeks, 24x7 support, called all weekend, every weekend, over holidays and vacations, for year over year.????

Yeah, nothing exploited there.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#319

Post by FrustratedMonky »

jandrewrogers wrote: post #92
giantg2 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that they are typically salaried, I wonder what the hour adjusted pay is? The median for a dev in the US is $110k, and many of those jobs fall in higher than average cost of living areas. It's possible that people in the industry want better working conditions or more equal/open pay systems, not just more money. Better hiring practices could be nice too.

The median software developer job is not in a high-cost area. $110k is less than what the median software developer is paid in e.g. Omaha, Nebraska, where the median house price is $275k. In the US, software developers are highly compensated by local standards almost regardless of where they live. That was not always the case decades ago but it is today.

Not if you divide by the hours.

110K sounds great, now divide by 80 hour weeks. Now it is nominally 50K.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#320

Post by FrustratedMonky »

jandrewrogers wrote: post #47
FrustratedMonky wrote: post #5

Tech workers are usually so buried, heads hunched over the keyboard, focused on the latest project, that they aren't even aware they are being used. They straiten their back one day, look around, and realize they've been working for 20 years and getting nowhere. They got good enough raises, but forgot inflation, and it was really nothing.

> realize they've been working for 20 years and getting nowhere How are you defining "getting nowhere"? At least in the US, the average software developer eventually becomes a millionaire working a pretty cushy job with good benefits. Most people in unions wish they could be exploited like software engineers. Any bar set so high in defining worker exploitation that a software engineer can't clear the hurdle is not a…

Millionaire?

That is some grade a BS.

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