Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

At this company, we are family

pboyd.io

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

311–320 of 343 posts

Re: At this company, we are family

#311

Post by nmfisher »

johneth wrote: post #43
FredPret wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As you so sarcastically point out, Americans give up many employment rights such as these. But it's not a one-way street. Being easier to fire makes American employees easier to hire, which is at least in part responsible for much higher pay in the USA compared to employee havens such as Europe. Furthermore, Americans tend to pay less tax. This isn't usually thought of as an employee rights issue, but in my mind, kee…

I think there's a middle ground between 'at-will employment capitalist hellscape' America and 'unable to be fired for months socialist hellscape' Europe.

Generally I've always found the underlying principle behind the Australian system[0] to be a reasonable middle ground.

Those making less than a certain amount can only be terminated:

a) immediately for cause (theft/fraud/etc)

b) with notice for poor performance

c) with notice and a legislated payout for redundancy where the job is no longer required.

Those earning above a certain amount need to negotiate any/all of these into their contract.

Admittedly it does occasionally result in employees being reinstated whose sacking was (IMO) completely justified. I don't like those specific instances, but I figure it's the price you have to pay for a system that is tilted slightly in favour of employees.

[0] The actual laws are rubbish though, they're intentionally obtuse/vague owing to industrial relations being a political minefield and no government wanting to touch it for fear of voter pushback.

Re: At this company, we are family

#312

Post by stemlord »

Brusco_RF wrote: post #175
notaustinpowers wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Typically not, but they absolutely feed into the higher-ups perception of you. I worked at a company an hour away from my home. So anytime we had our monthly post-work happy hour, I'd politely decline and go home. Especially as I know they'll be out until 10pm. During one of my reviews it was mentioned that it's disappointing I don't attend the happy hours as that's when the team is able to connect and strengthen our…

Look I'm not saying you need to stay out drinking until 10pm but team-building is important to any job, especially if you're a leader, and much of that team cohesiveness happens outside of work hours. It's not too surprising if skipping all team-building events results in... not being a part of the team

I couldn't disagree with you more. That employees must work (yes, this is work by your own admission) outside working hours is at the very least ironic. It's an insidious form of exploitation.

Team building happens by relying on each other while doing your actual jobs. That is the extent of a relationship needed among colleagues in a professional context.

Re: At this company, we are family

#313

Post by jjav »

sokoloff wrote: post #261
RajT88 wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I contracted at a company once which operated like a family. Once you got hired, it was really difficult to get fired. So much so, most people there hadn't heard about anyone ever getting fired. Eventually, someone heard through the grapevine what a firing offense was: Getting caught having sex on the company campus with a coworker. But! The first time was a warning. That company had soooo much money to burn. Lots of…

> what a firing offense was: Getting caught having sex on the company campus with a coworker. If both/all people are consenting, that might be slightly tacky, but surely shouldn't be a fireable offense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Td67kYY9mdQ

Re: At this company, we are family

#314

Post by EchoReflection »

several years ago I became an "ultra high net worth individual" (through unexpected events involving a car accident and an inept (but very large) insurance company, and with the help of my closest family members I/we decided (for legal reasons) what was to be done with my wealth in the event of my death. Deciding which family members (I have a pretty big family, if I count aunts, uncles, cousins, but only two grandparents left) to whom I would want to leave what amounts of that wealth was very surreal. Kind of felt like putting monetary values on family, which I guess in a sense it literally was.

Re: At this company, we are family

#315

Post by scubbo »

chinchilla2020 wrote: post #253
jedberg wrote: post #156

This is why I always liked Netflix's outlook (both stated and practiced): We are a sports team, not a family. Perform well and you will be paid well, perform poorly and you will get a nice check to go elsewhere. And sometimes you might perform really well but we just don't need someone with your skills anymore, so we'll still give you nice check to go elsewhere, and that isn't a reflection on your abilities.

Netflix can do that because they pay as well as sports teams do. If you offer me a typical tech job at 1/20th of what a netflix engineer makes, don't expect me to perform like Michael Jordan. Sports team dedicate their entire life to performance. 80 hour weeks are nothing to them. Their diet, sleep, and personal lives are part of their jobs. I don't want a typical tech shop to have that sort of control over me unless…

> That a new hire has to be better than 50% of the interviewers

Not sure if a typo, but if this is what you actually meant, this is a _gross_ misunderstanding of the situation. The benchmark is that a new hire should _have capability to_ outperform 50% of folks in the current role, not a) _currently_ be able to outperform b) 50% of _interviewers_ (who are potentially of higher level than the interviewee).

Anecdataly, I am ~6 months into my first post-Amazon role (after 10 years there) and have only met a single peer who would have been passable in my previous team.

Re: At this company, we are family

#316

Post by mgaunard »

frereubu wrote: post #109
mgaunard wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you live in the UK, income tax is 45%, and you still cannot rely on either of public education or public healthcare, at least if you want something of good quality.

Income tax in the UK is 45% only on the portion over £125,140 (~ $160,000) a year: https://www.gov.uk/income-tax-rates

Principal software engineer positions and above frequently reach $1M per year.

Re: At this company, we are family

#317

Post by blitzar »

khazhoux wrote: post #272
majormajor wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did they actually pay Netflix level? Either with huge cash salaries or very very large equity packages?

I don't understand why people think that this philosophy only makes sense if you have gigantic compensation packages. What's so off-putting about: "Do well and you stick around, do poorly and you go away"?

Danger pay is a thing for a reason. Contracting pay vs salaried pay is a thing for a reason.

Or mathematically, the long term expected return from a volatile employment situation should be equal to the long term expected return from a stable employment situation.

Re: At this company, we are family

#318

Post by wink »

bluefishinit wrote: post #122
xyzelement wrote: post #59

This is well written and I agree that family is a very imperfect analogy for a working relationship. At the same time, some work situations are more or less family-like and it still pays to look for the "more." I've been lucky that 4 companies I've worked at in my life so far have been very "employee forward" - creating scenarios of employee growth and engagement (vs putting employees in the seat of powerless cogs).…

> "Family" doesn't mean employing you past the point it makes sense Actually family does mean that, literally. It makes absolutely no sense to use this term in a business context.

I'm confused, if we take out the paycheck how many people have lost or broken off contact with parts or all of their family? The people are still your family but you might have not talked to them for decades, so you're maybe only part of it on paper but not in practice? So that's why I think the family term makes no sense, because there are a million possible constellations for family/immediate family/in contact/etc.

Re: At this company, we are family

#319

Post by ath3nd »

matrix_overload wrote: post #31
intothemild wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who's autistic, these kinds of companies are very difficult for me. Usually the "we're family" companies are also the "let's have a social event constantly", or return to the office days are also just filled with socializing. I get it.. some people really enjoy that, but that's not everyone. It feels like it's by design to exclude other kinds of people who don't enjoy a hyper social environment.

No, it's a way to distract them so they won't notice they're being screwed over financially and opportunity cost-wise. You are immune to this exploit, which makes you a black sheep in their eyes, but not that you should care. Look for places that don't do the bullshit and you'll end up better off than the sheep.

As someone who is also on the spectrum, the following common behavior in a company baffles me.

The company will exhibit the following behaviors at the same time:

- they will organize a bunch of social events, full of drinking and games, fly colleagues from all over the world to some exotic location

- will refuse to increase your salary to match inflation citing lack of funds (which were somehow available when flying 200 people to AUSTRALIA)

- will work on deadend projects to further the career of X-middle manager/whim of CEO due to something they read. Will overhire people for said projects. At same time, main parts of business can often be underfunded and understaffed

- will cut off full departments when said deadend projects reach their inevitable dead end

- will, at random holidays, give away branded bags, pens, socks, usbs and chocolates, but still have no budget for a salary increase

- will be having a great financial year with 15% growth and send emails of the type: "Good job Team!" but salary increases will not happen or be confined to the 1-2% range.

After some time the cognitive dissonance becomes too much and you simply stop caring.

Re: At this company, we are family

#320

Post by ath3nd »

Brusco_RF wrote: post #297
JohnFen wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's voluntary then there is no problem. "Voluntary" means that there will be no adverse effect on your employment if you decline to participate. Your characterization of the activity strongly implies that not participating will come with consequences to your job.

The opposite. Participating benefits your career. Curious what you think about this: Say there's no company sponsorship or involvement. You get invited to happy hour or a round of golf with the higher-ups completely on your own dime. Its obviously beneficial to pal around with your superiors. Is that a problem?

> Participating benefits your career.

That means NOT participating hurts your career, or at least doesn't further it, which is the same thing. Career outlook should be dependent only on your performance at work, and requiring to do extra unpaid stuff after work is simply a form of silent exploitation, favoring young people (mostly men, as women getting wasted with their superiors might be considered unprofessional) with no dependents (e.g children).

Push that to the extreme, and you have an extremely bro-hierarchical culture like Japan, where guys are expected to spend their (unpaid) time with their superiors at karaoke bars at late parts of the night, while not doing so puts their career prospects at risk.

All kinds of these silent expectations (but not demands) achieve is form a power imbalance where the ones not wanting to participate (in senseless drinking, or idiotic child games of team building) are pushed to the fringe and not considered "team players". This, naturally, creates a culture of fear that you might miss some of those unspoken rules of the workplace, and also a form of competition of who will simp more to their boss by letting them win at laser tag. Grown up people have families to be with, old parents to take care of, hobbies to do, errands to run, so in a culture of drinking/hanging out after office hours, they often have to choose between possible career prospects or family, and that's always a hard choice.

Post reply on HN