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French govt. says users of uBlock Origin, Signal etc. are potential terrorists

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Re: French govt. says users of uBlock Origin, Signal etc. are potential terrorists

#311

Post by HourglassFR »

qsdf38100 wrote: post #285
jle17 wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is definitely a tendency to authoritarianism and confusionism from the current government, directed at political opposition. "Security" laws extending the powers of the police and creating new ways to criminalize protest have been passed at a constant rhythm over the years since Sarkozy's time. After the state of urgency of 2015, part of the dispositions where simply put into law permanently. Police has been in…

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> You are attacking the wrong target. You are missing the big picture.

This is rich comming from someone putting Melenchon, basically an old school socialist (in the werstern Europe sense), in the same bag as Le Pen and Zemmour who are as far-right as it gets in Europe.

I agree that the situation is not very readable, but at least let's try to have a point of view consistent with the political history of the last few decades.

Re: French govt. says users of uBlock Origin, Signal etc. are potential terrorists

#312

Post by wholinator2 »

atlantic wrote: post #267
light_hue_1 wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

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There was no coup attempt in the US. Trump was legitimately elected, and proved to be competent as a president, if somewhat weak due to opposition from the entrenched bureaucracy ("deep state"). He was certainly less of a warmonger than his immediate predecessors or successors, for which the world should be grateful. All the hysteria about him proved to be just that.

Well we can't say he didn't do anything strange. Firing huge portions of the state department to replace them with loyalists, attempting to dismantle the EPA (the only agency keeping track of aging nuclear submarines and, you know, that whole climate change thing), exiting the Iran nuclear deal for essentially nothing. Those are just from the top of my head but apart from the constant social faux-pas being signal boosted to the entire world, there was a very long chain of legitimately frightening actions that led to fears about him being relatively justified. Then there's the whole "big lie" and all the actions leading up to it. No one could rightly say he _wasn't_ attempting to seize continued power. I don't think it was like a full military coup, but there were definitely concerning actions

Re: French govt. says users of uBlock Origin, Signal etc. are potential terrorists

#313

Post by zirgs »

nottorp wrote: post #277
lucubratory wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's insane, what country is that?

Bet it's a country that was in or close to the USSR and would really like to not go back in there...

Yup. Soon after the war started our parliament passed a law that specifically legalised this.

Re: French govt. says users of uBlock Origin, Signal etc. are potential terrorists

#314

Post by lm28469 »

wott wrote: post #259
lm28469 wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fighting for a foreign nation and/or mercenaries is illegal in itself

> Fighting for a foreign nation and/or mercenaries is illegal in itself Nope. It depends on countries (and mood of the year). Some countries allow to become mercenaries and forbid voluntary fighting for a foreign nation. Some countries allow to voluntary fight for a foreign nation and forbid to become mercenaries. And so on. France even has the French Foreign Legion...

> France even has the French Foreign Legion...

Which is... the complete opposite of fighting for a foreign nation since it's part of the French army. You can allow foreigners in your army while at the same time making it illegal for your own citizen to join foreign mercenaries

Re: French govt. says users of uBlock Origin, Signal etc. are potential terrorists

#315

Post by skitout »

qsdf38100 wrote: post #282
beremaki wrote: post #158

Situation in France will not end well. Both rule of law and liberal democracy are increasingly damaged. Our institutions are so weak that we are one election away from a complete disaster. Our constitution always concentrated a lot of power in the hand of the president but there is no effective counter-power left. The government set multiple precedent that violate freedom of assembly and association and parliamentary…

Come on, this is so exaggerated. If you care about democracy, you have much more relevant menace in France. People are screaming about Macron for some reason. Because they were told he is a DiCtAtOr!! Because he didn’t fold to unions. Apparently unions are to be obeyed otherwise you are a dictator? While obeying to elected government is dictatorship? It’s a nice inversion. The true authoritarian menace in France come…

Well, democracy is not 0 or 1, there are shades... So for sure Macron is not a dictator, but French democracy "grade" was not super high and it did went down.

French 5th republic is sometimes nicknamed "presidential monarchy"... Electing the parliament quite at the same time as the president did reinforced the power of the president. The rise of the far right basically made that the one in the best position against far right at the first round of presidential election (with less than 20% of French people voting for him) be sure of being a Presidential Monarch for 5 years. (Notes that the leftist like Melanchon support a new constitution with more democracy, more counter power, less power for the president...)

Note also that in France people working do democratically vote for unions (even if you are not unionized), and quite 100% of those votes went to union that are strongly against las Pension Law. According to polls more than 90% of the workers were against this law. And Macron could not pass this law in the elected parliament, and had to twist the constitution to pass it... This can be seen as problematic for many.

When it come to protest, a lot of NGO and international bodies criticized the way France handle it. Many people are afraid to prostest in France now. Even the journalist of the righ wing newspaper le Figaro protest several time against police brutality against journalist in protest. NOte that France is the only country in EUrope to use many kind of weapon against protestors, weapon that can kill .

When it comes to journalists. Aside of being target by police during the protest, we've seen also a growing Judicial pressure against them. And now the government is talking about law where they could be spied...

"Because" of terrorism we've seen different law reducing the privacy of people... and many exceptional law that are hijacked to target people who are political opponent but not terrorist (like a police raid without judge OK against peaceful ecologists, or using antiterrorist law to forbid some peacefull protest)

Even the normal law are "twisted" is a problematic way. Like arresting random protesters and keeping them for the night. Or arresting the leader of a group for a fake reason and then searshing his phone flat computer for intel...

FOr sure France is not a dictature, but things are not good and are not going in a good way

Re: French govt. says users of uBlock Origin, Signal etc. are potential terrorists

#316

Post by isaacremuant »

light_hue_1 wrote: post #233
FreelanceX wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> EU knows and complains about Poland & Hungary but France is going to be a shitshow of a far worse magnitude. I am French too and this sounds greatly exaggerated. Either you don't really know about the situation in Hungary or you have a very twisted view of what's happening in France (maybe induced by the medias). You should take a step back.

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Re: French govt. says users of uBlock Origin, Signal etc. are potential terrorists

#317

Post by hef19898 »

piokoch wrote: post #228
beremaki wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I say is that IF France becomes an illiberal democracy, it is going to be far worse for EU than what happened in Hungary. Hungary and France are absolutely not on the same scale

Wait for the next election in Germany. AfD has just climbed to the 2nd place with 20% of support and is still growing. Believe or not, one day you will miss someone like Orban.

Well, in the last election the greens were projected to get the most votes. Didn't happen. Not to say that the AfDs popularity isn't worrisome, it is, but votes are counted on election days.

Re: French govt. says users of uBlock Origin, Signal etc. are potential terrorists

#318

Post by pnt12 »

pif wrote: post #212
lannisterstark wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>context matters a lot Not in this current context. You can't detain someone willy nilly for 'intentions' without such intentions being explicitly stated as proof in letters, emails, messages, threats etc. This is authoritarian pandering 101.

> This is authoritarian pandering 101. No, this is matter-of-fact anti-terrorism.

Anti-terrorism and authoritarianism go hand in hand, that's been clear since 9/11.

The problem is that government us terrorism scaremongering to justify erasing citizens rights. It's completely valid to be anti-terrorist and prefer alternative choices to fight it.

For example, in my country, both polices and tribunals are severely under provisioned. I'd start with imroofijg those budgets before passing surveillance laws.

Re: French govt. says users of uBlock Origin, Signal etc. are potential terrorists

#319

Post by wholinator2 »

qsdf38100 wrote: post #285
jle17 wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is definitely a tendency to authoritarianism and confusionism from the current government, directed at political opposition. "Security" laws extending the powers of the police and creating new ways to criminalize protest have been passed at a constant rhythm over the years since Sarkozy's time. After the state of urgency of 2015, part of the dispositions where simply put into law permanently. Police has been in…

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And you are arguing with fallacies and emotion. Asking broad question to bring emotion without actually backing that up factually. Straw manning the others argument by reducing it to dislike of physical appearance, or simply directed stupidity. And then making vague assertions that they are "missing the big picture".

Please, friend, instead of attacking the man you should attack the argument. Give us the why to all of these assertions. What is the bigger picture? What actually could go wrong? Argue with facts please. Let's not turn this into a flame war

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