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Why I Left Rust

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Re: Why I Left Rust

#311

Post by qwery »

indy wrote: post #88
junon wrote: post #77

Wait. Let me get this straight. Someone is an expert in this field. They're asked to speak at RustConf after a leadership vote. They've also written an article about reflection in Rust - a purely technical thing that is already pretty widely disliked conceptually. (EDIT: the talk was about this, but it's also compile time reflection and came with the usual disclaimer that it was not representative of any of the Rust…

Much less weight should be given to someone "feeling uncomfortable" Rust the language is pretty good but the community around it has become really off-putting. The thick veneer of empathy and compassion quickly devolves into "idiot compassion" and emotional blackmail. Even the linked post contains the following: "I left because when I felt JeanHeyd's pain and disappointment at being mistreated and betrayed, my heart…

Leaving (or excluding yourself from) something because of "personal reasons" is very different to excluding someone else because of your own discomfort, though.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#312

Post by jmull »

BlueTemplar wrote: post #276
bruce343434 wrote: post #183

As a non-american I must say I don't understand where the latter half of the article comes from. Why care about race? Why must a racist reason be sought behind everything?

[flagged]

> It's NOT acceptable to call people "Black" (note, pretty much equivalent to the n-word)

That's a rather extreme claim. I'd be careful about holding strong views on things you don't understand very well, especially on such a charged topic.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#313

Post by adave »

bradleyjg wrote: post #206
indy wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much less weight should be given to someone "feeling uncomfortable" Rust the language is pretty good but the community around it has become really off-putting. The thick veneer of empathy and compassion quickly devolves into "idiot compassion" and emotional blackmail. Even the linked post contains the following: "I left because when I felt JeanHeyd's pain and disappointment at being mistreated and betrayed, my heart…

I left because when I felt JeanHeyd's pain and disappointment at being mistreated and betrayed, my heart broke. I wept because of the cruelty. I wouldn’t want to work with someone that wrote this. I’m not sure which is worse—if it’s hyperbole or it isn’t.

Let us see you rewrite it given the community culture and guidelines. Can't write i left because of toxic pieces of shit people with zero empathy.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#314

Post by viraptor »

jasmer wrote: post #244
whinvik wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like this post misses the point. Do most people care if someone was a keynote speaker? No(Outside of academia). Is it a big deal if your talk was selected as a speaker or keynote speaker? No. But should you care if your talk is demoted from Keynote to non-keynote without following due process(and possibly because of personal biases)? Yes. I don't know anything about any of the parties involved, but I feel like…

Nobody cares but the speaker themselves. There is obviously some legit cred here, and it's a definite downgrade - but it's not being sent to the woods either. G Given that 'nobody else cares at all, whatsoever' - that adds context to this which we should include in our understanding. Nobody is missing grant money, or getting a stain on their resume, not getting a job, publicly dragged, meaning the slight is ultimatel…

> Nobody cares but the speaker themselves.

You're not speaking for everyone. I care about the Rust leadership behaving properly for example, because issues like this may be a sign of other problems with respecting the community. And I would like to trust them to resolve issues fairly and quickly since I will rely on the project's progress in the future and don't want people leaving because of mishandling social issues.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#315

Post by monkeywork »

quotemstr wrote: post #305
paddw wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This whole exchange feels off. Essentially, the underlying spat is over a strong technical disagreement, but it is being prosecuted in this weirdly stylized language of emotion and abuse. I have no idea how something like this can be overcome so long as the core Rust community feels this is an acceptable way to handle things. Clearly this is something which extends beyond the immediate leadership team.

We've deprived a whole generation of the rhetorical tools for healthy, impersonal and professional argument. It's no wonder that they've pressed this "stylized language of emotion and abuse" into service to fill the void: it's all they know.

curious - what tools were deprived to a whole generation?

Re: Why I Left Rust

#316

Post by veidr »

zozbot234 wrote: post #216
WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He is saying “be an actual professional and don’t bring a vocabulary pertaining to intimate discussions to the public sphere when what’s discussed is a technical conference.” It’s already barely acceptable in a purely American context. To me as a European, this is extremely off putting and culturally out of line which is a recurring problem with Rust.

It's a dog whistle. What the OP is actually saying is that he's extremely angry and pissed off that this was allowed to happen, and he's noping out for that eminently understandable reason. But if he said that in no uncertain terms (as a European very well might in similar circumstances!) he might fall afoul of the official Code of Conduct for being aggressive and threatening towards other contributors. Hence this we…

[flagged]

Re: Why I Left Rust

#317

Post by throwaway5959 »

jxf wrote: post #112
ghusto wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The equivalent situation is something like being warmly invited to a wedding > ... > Later, you're told you can only come to the ceremony and not the reception or party For context, I've spoken at over 100 conference events. Is it though? I can tell you from an audience point of view it almost certainly isn't. Nobody cares very much what "status, time, and prominence" your talk has. Which leads me to ... > There ar…

> So it's an ego thing? It's a respect thing. It costs time and money to produce and give a talk. That very often isn't visible to the audience. It takes weeks of dedicated preparation to deliver a high-quality keynote talk, and people have day jobs and other obligations. If they're going to travel hundreds or thousands of miles and now have to pay for the privilege, they might want to not be treated as disposable. T…

Why not just make all talks keynotes then. Change the label and everyone gets respect.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#318

Post by monkeywork »

wokwokwok wrote: post #111
indy wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much less weight should be given to someone "feeling uncomfortable" Rust the language is pretty good but the community around it has become really off-putting. The thick veneer of empathy and compassion quickly devolves into "idiot compassion" and emotional blackmail. Even the linked post contains the following: "I left because when I felt JeanHeyd's pain and disappointment at being mistreated and betrayed, my heart…

Is it bad of me to say I really just don’t care? If he did the talk. If he did it as a keynote. If someone else is “leaving rust” because of it? It all seems so fabulously irrelevant, I really struggle to understand why: 1) I should care (I don’t, currently) 2) People are coming out of the woodwork to criticise the rust team / foundation whatever when they’re not involved. 3) Why people having emotions (eg. The perso…

You should care because this becomes more and more the reputation of the language and as it pushes more and more talented people away the staying power of the language (and its ability to be "great") begins to diminish.

People don't need to be perfect, but if people are going to REPRESENT something (ie the Rust Language) they need to be better than the petty drama that the Rust team has been involved in over the last while.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#319

Post by marcinzm »

naasking wrote: post #254
zozbot234 wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a dog whistle. What the OP is actually saying is that he's extremely angry and pissed off that this was allowed to happen, and he's noping out for that eminently understandable reason. But if he said that in no uncertain terms (as a European very well might in similar circumstances!) he might fall afoul of the official Code of Conduct for being aggressive and threatening towards other contributors. Hence this we…

> What the OP is actually saying is that he's extremely angry and pissed off that this was allowed to happen [...] But if he said that in no uncertain terms [...] he might fall afoul of the official Code of Conduct for being aggressive and threatening towards other contributors. So they need reverse psychology to express anger at injustice because of the Code of Conduct? What is this world we're building?

>So they need reverse psychology to express anger at injustice because of the Code of Conduct? What is this world we're building?

All of life is change and cycles and oscillations. Not just human society but even whole ecosystems. Very likely this approach will be pushed to extremes, implode and then the cycle will swing the other way. There are valid reasons for this cultural shift and like all such shifts those supporting it need to experience the failure of going too far. Eventually some less extreme equilibrium will come about.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#320

Post by stcroixx »

Languages that don’t have a built in police squad don’t have issues like this. The ‘community’ around Rust is its biggest handicap right now.
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