Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health • Hacker News Board

Re: Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

#311

Post by Sivart13 » Mon, May 15, 2023, 4:53 PM UTC

meragrin_ wrote: post #301

alexb_ wrote: post #45

There is so much instant dismissal of this entire idea that smartphones are harmful in this thread, most of which is just "correlation is not causation". Yes, correlation does not equal causation. But when it makes logical sense why there would be correlation, there is no way to actually measure causation (we can't exactly give kids placebo phones), we keep seeing the same correlation over and over again, why is it b…

> Smartphones give children the ability to bully each other at a scale unlike any other. People problem. > Smartphones give children the ability to see everyone who is smarter than they are, prettier than they are, and so on. People problem. > Smartphones give children a new avenue for social exclusion. People problem. > Smartphones make every single child afraid that what they are doing is being recorded by someone…

What's easier to change, human nature or technology?

Re: Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

#312

Post by mordae » Mon, May 15, 2023, 4:55 PM UTC

jstarfish wrote: post #204

IceHegel wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the huge majority of the risk is that an otherwise curious person destroys themselves in their teenage years, rather than have their curiosity limited.

Boredom leads to curiosity. Smartphones ensure the user is never bored.

Does it?

Re: Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

#313

Post by swayvil » Mon, May 15, 2023, 4:55 PM UTC

afavour wrote: post #122

jacquesm wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Smartphone = pushy social media in your pocket 24x7. In practice I suspect that amongst highschoolers the ratio of time spent between wikipedia and social media (and gaming as well) heavily favors the latter.

Like I said: > It's possible to set up a child's smartphone in such a way that their access to social media is limited if not totally removed. The problem is parents who don't care enough to get actively involved in their child's lives to this extent.

That's how the Amish do it.

The wise old smart elders sit down and discuss the latest gadgets. If the gadget looks harmful then they say nope.

It's a pretty good system.

Re: Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

#314

Post by za3faran » Mon, May 15, 2023, 4:55 PM UTC

I attended a very informative lecture by Dr. Leonard Sax a number of years ago, when it was at the cusp of the social media explosion we see today, and he brought up studies that showed similar dangerous effects on young boys and girls, especially girls, and then he went on to discuss why that was. It's clear that social media is extremely toxic, I felt a big quality of life improvement when I abandoned FB, and I don't use instagram or tictoc or what have you.

Re: Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

#315

Post by atourgates » Mon, May 15, 2023, 5:02 PM UTC

hydrok9 wrote: post #185

alexb_ wrote: post #45

There is so much instant dismissal of this entire idea that smartphones are harmful in this thread, most of which is just "correlation is not causation". Yes, correlation does not equal causation. But when it makes logical sense why there would be correlation, there is no way to actually measure causation (we can't exactly give kids placebo phones), we keep seeing the same correlation over and over again, why is it b…

I'll add this. Smartphones give children instant access to instant stimulation, and it gives children access to an escapist fantasy world. Both of those things, if used to self-medicate, will cause mental health issues.

I'd disagree with the "instant access to an escapist fantasy world" bit being the core issue.

Kids have had access to escapist fantasy worlds ever since the invention of the paperback, and I don't think "being able to distract yourself with books" will lead to mental health issues.

Re: Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

#316

Post by [deleted] » Mon, May 15, 2023, 5:04 PM UTC

treeman79 wrote: post #251

judge2020 wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> FFS most parents will shove up an iDevice to their toddlers so they can play angry birds or whatever instead of caring for them more actively. This is such a 2010 way of thinking. Now they just hand their kids the YouTube app (signed into their parents' account) and let autoplay babysit their kid for hours a day.

I often tell people I was raised by NES and SNES.

[deleted]

Re: Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

#317

Post by fnordpiglet » Mon, May 15, 2023, 5:05 PM UTC

alexb_ wrote: post #45

There is so much instant dismissal of this entire idea that smartphones are harmful in this thread, most of which is just "correlation is not causation". Yes, correlation does not equal causation. But when it makes logical sense why there would be correlation, there is no way to actually measure causation (we can't exactly give kids placebo phones), we keep seeing the same correlation over and over again, why is it b…

I sort of agree, the instant satisfaction of base human desires a smartphone offers, particularly if wide open to psychosocially optimized personalized social media and related applications, is dangerous at any age but especially for people who haven’t built the social experience and resilience necessary - both young and old.

Additionally the form factor makes it ever present and open for use / abuse.

For my child, she has an iPad mini that’s heavily parental controlled. She has no access to social media, and only a few games - Minecraft, Stardew Valley, and Terraria. She has drawing programs, education programs from her school (RazKids, etc), and a locked down messenger with only her family members in contacts. It has her kindle, which she has a epaper version of as well. She does have access to safari, but as of yet she just uses it for Wikipedia and stuff. I watch her use and will tailor access as appropriate.

Further we talk to her about the ills and the causes of the ills from social media and addiction optimized user experiences in these devices. The device isn’t the problem, it’s the “impressions, conversions, and stickiness at all costs” mentality that drives so much revenue, and thus so much UX.

I was raised on NES and c64 games, and I gained an awful lot out of it. I don’t agree that there’s anything intrinsically wrong with computers presenting content vs the real world. But I do know there is something wrong with the relationship between users of modern internet media and the companies extracting maximal value from shaping our behavior. That impact increases as you become younger / less sophisticated.

Re: Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

#318

Post by tgv » Mon, May 15, 2023, 5:05 PM UTC

aierou wrote: post #201

tgv wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not as if the papers, and the health organizations, haven't been saying this for years now. Demand for mental health care under children and young adults has skyrocketed, and demand far outstrips supply. Is that sufficient?

No, dude. Conclusions cannot be made based on feelings. Where exactly is that step in the scientific method? It certainly doesn't sound like the rigorous skepticism that should be applied to what is observed. I am appalled at the willingness to make huge logical leaps on the basis of emotions or morality in this thread.

We're talking reasonably informed caution here. Science doesn't come into it, at all. Science is trying to make sense of the world, this is about preventing harm. And, as I wrote elsewhere, the social sciences have almost nothing to offer in terms of policy and decision making. They're too unreliable.

We can however easily imagine what's happening in this particular case, and the data support it. The damages are enormous. Like climate change, continuing is not an option, nor is waiting until we've got conclusive evidence, because that will take ages.

Making claims based on scientific method (not even theory or findings, because we have them, and they support the tenor of the article) is not helpful.

Re: Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

#319

Post by ashton314 » Mon, May 15, 2023, 5:06 PM UTC

adastra22 wrote: post #166

alexb_ wrote: post #45

There is so much instant dismissal of this entire idea that smartphones are harmful in this thread, most of which is just "correlation is not causation". Yes, correlation does not equal causation. But when it makes logical sense why there would be correlation, there is no way to actually measure causation (we can't exactly give kids placebo phones), we keep seeing the same correlation over and over again, why is it b…

My kids don’t have phones. They are the only ones among their peers who don’t have a phone. I told them they can get one when they write an app and get it listed on the App Store, not before. Most people I tell this to are impressed. The only time I got crucified was the last time I mentioned it on HN. This seems to be a particular bone to pick that HN users have.

I won't quibble about the bar of "write an app"—presumably that's something you'd be able to help them with.

I really like the idea of helping kids see computers/phones as tools for creation and exploration, rather than entertainment boxes. I personally feel like the danger for most kids with computers/smart phones/etc. is the addictive entertainment aspect, not as a thing in and of itself.

Re: Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

#320

Post by makeitdouble » Mon, May 15, 2023, 5:07 PM UTC

mech7654 wrote: post #95

makeitdouble wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because that argument can have no refutation, jor any clear verification. You wont find a control group that lives the same life as these kids but without a cell phone. You can't teleport these kids 50 years earlier etc. So we're bound to hear hot takes that have no other substanciation than "it makes logical sense" My main issue with these hot takes is that it doesn't help, as smartphone aren't going away. In contra…

If you look at social science as an entire discipline (separate from "hard science"- which sounds dismissive- "Hard science" is able to achieve better precision because its experimental subjects are easier to control! in those ways it is easier!), it is so fraught with confounding factors and difficulties applying controls that eventually you have to choose a lower standard of evidence than "perfectly rigorous". One…

Thing is, we already applied precautionnary principles in a very organic fashion: hight end phones have always been expensive, and very few kids got access to phones able to access messages, email, then social networks.

Be it Blackberry or Vodafone/docomo phones it took years before regular teenage kids could buy them in significant numbers. Same for the iPhone, it's not like millions of teens got their hand instantaneously on a 3G the minute it went out.

By the time it became widspread enough, we already had devices in the wild for a decade or so (for reference imode launched in 1999).

We might want to revise how smartphones are regulated and/or social media policies, but IMHO we're far away from the simple "we don't know let's be cautious" phase, and there is a burden of proof on what exactly needs to be regulated to what expected effect.