Bilingualism affords no general cognitive advantages: Study • Hacker News Board

Re: Bilingualism affords no general cognitive advantages: Study

#311

Post by denton-scratch » Mon, Apr 24, 2023, 9:46 AM UTC

mejutoco wrote: post #261

pazimzadeh wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you. I once had an argument with a monolingual English-speaking person who was convinced that language is necessary for thinking, or that thinking somehow comes from language, which couldn't be further from my experience where I will have an abstract thought and then try to put it into words. However it took years for me to be conscious of the abstract thinking. I started out by thinking in my native ton…

About thinking, I always think (hah) of this quote: "Lo que solemos elevar a la categoría de meditaciones no es más que el ruido de un motor encendido." Ray Loriga My idiomatic translation: "What we usually elevate to thinking/thoughts is only the noise of a running engine." I also believe language is necessary for thinking. I would define thinking as following the scientific method, though. That is, thinking is not…

> I also believe language is necessary for thinking.

I suspect that different people think verbally to different degrees. I mean, everyone uses words in their head to manipulate ideas, to some extent; but some people use pictures more than others, and some people are very abstract, and despite being super-bright, aren't very good at translating their ideas into clear language.

Re: Bilingualism affords no general cognitive advantages: Study

#312

Post by e12e » Mon, Apr 24, 2023, 9:46 AM UTC

decaffjoe wrote: post #201

This topic misses the forest for the trees. Even if there is a cognitive difference in people who speak multiple languages, the magnitude of the advantage/disadvantage pales in comparison to the far more impactful difference in the understanding of the world that proficiency in another language gives you. If you're a monolingual American born English speaker and you learn Chinese and go live in China for a year, you'…

> If you're a monolingual American born English speaker and you learn Chinese and go live in China for a year, you're going to come back with a much different understanding of Chinese culture and its people.

Less obvious, and IMNHO more significant is that you'll come back with a new perspective on culture; and as a result a new perspective on your own culture (now having a point of comparison).

Re: Bilingualism affords no general cognitive advantages: Study

#313

Post by oblio » Mon, Apr 24, 2023, 9:46 AM UTC

kriro wrote: post #306

First of all, as someone form a completely different field I like the style of the paper. Abstract and motivation are very consise and to the point with good references and it's very clear to me what they want to show and why. The method seems ok to me as well, internet based test taking with tests that sound reasonable to me (as a lay person, I have not idea what the typical tests in these studies look like). Statis…

> Luxembourg come to mind as natural bi- or multilinguals.

Speaking from experience with Luxembourg, their school results (PISA) are average despite sky high teacher salaries and a ton of investment into education. Especially STEM results. The more languages Luxembourg adds the worse results become (Portuguese immigrants fare worse than locals).

Re: Bilingualism affords no general cognitive advantages: Study

#314

Post by e12e » Mon, Apr 24, 2023, 9:52 AM UTC

AdrenalinMd wrote: post #50

As someone fluent in four languages*, I agree. I would even argue that the opposite of an advantage is true. Consider this: it adds unnecessary cognitive load. When trying to think of a word, it comes to you in four different languages, which isn't helpful! I speak four languages out of necessity, not by choice. When you can focus on fewer languages, your proficiency in them improves. Although I can speak four langua…

> Now, I'm in the Netherlands and need to learn another language, but this one is proving slow to learn.

I've heard people that speak many languages fluently claim that it gets easier after the fifth language - so keep at it.

One tip; try as much as possible to stick to switching only between your mother tongue and the new(est) language you're learning - or at least have as many full days as you can where you avoid switching to other foreign languages.

Until you become fluent in the new language (say about a year if living/working in the new language).

Re: Bilingualism affords no general cognitive advantages: Study

#315

Post by david-gpu » Mon, Apr 24, 2023, 9:57 AM UTC

KptMarchewa wrote: post #310

decaffjoe wrote: post #201

This topic misses the forest for the trees. Even if there is a cognitive difference in people who speak multiple languages, the magnitude of the advantage/disadvantage pales in comparison to the far more impactful difference in the understanding of the world that proficiency in another language gives you. If you're a monolingual American born English speaker and you learn Chinese and go live in China for a year, you'…

I find it weird that no one even spoke of understanding linguistic determinism and how using one or the other language influences how you think. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_determinism As someone who learned English as a second language, I very much experienced this.

I suspect this is overblown. Clearly a Spaniard and a Swedish don't automatically start thinking like an Australian just because they are communicating in English.

What is more likely to happen is that when a Spaniard and a Swedish learn English they will over time be exposed to the culture of other English speakers. This will for the time being be dominated by American culture, but as English continues to be the lingua franca of the world, the balance will slowly shift and include more cultural elements from places with large populations like India.

Language barriers prevent the sharing of culture and being able to communicate with a wide array of people is something to celebrate.

Re: Bilingualism affords no general cognitive advantages: Study

#316

Post by bryanrasmussen » Mon, Apr 24, 2023, 9:59 AM UTC

AdamN wrote: post #270

bryanrasmussen wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's the moving to China for a year that would increase your understanding of Chinese culture and people far more than learning Chinese by itself. sure, go to China for a year, only speak English, surround yourself with English speaking friends and going to English friendly restaurants and in the end come back with an increased understanding of Chinese culture and people and probably get jobs based on that understan…

That's not totally true - in Berlin there are lots of English speakers (many/most English as a second language) and so people including myself live here with pretty basic German (A2 probably). Those people are certainly learning alot about a different culture from wherever they came from even if they aren't speaking the dominant language. Obviously if I had B2 German it would be awesome and I would chat up more peopl…

yes, not every specific example translates perfectly to every other scenario under the same class.

However, I'm in Denmark. And I've lived in Germany. And I have an Italian wife and family.

In my experience in Denmark basically everybody without a language learning disability or extremely advanced age speaks English to a far higher degree of competence than the average German in Berlin, in fact Danes almost speak English as well as they believe themselves to do, which is high praise indeed.

But let's cut to the chase - based on my experiences in these countries my example is a lot closer to correct in all three of these EU countries than the counterargument is.

on edit: changed to improve comprehensibility.

It's unlikely anyone will possess even a mediocre understanding of any of these countries' cultures - even with a decade of living there - without speaking the language.

Re: Bilingualism affords no general cognitive advantages: Study

#317

Post by Aaronmacaron » Mon, Apr 24, 2023, 10:03 AM UTC

helsinkiandrew wrote: post #219

decaffjoe wrote: post #201

This topic misses the forest for the trees. Even if there is a cognitive difference in people who speak multiple languages, the magnitude of the advantage/disadvantage pales in comparison to the far more impactful difference in the understanding of the world that proficiency in another language gives you. If you're a monolingual American born English speaker and you learn Chinese and go live in China for a year, you'…

> This topic misses the forest for the trees. Even if there is a cognitive difference in people who speak multiple languages, the magnitude of the advantage/disadvantage pales in comparison to the far more impactful difference in the understanding of the world that proficiency in another language gives you. But that's not what the paper studied. It's long been stated in popular culture that learning a language increa…

> It's the moving to China for a year that would increase your understanding of Chinese culture and people far more than learning Chinese by itself.

Not really. Language and culture are inseparable. In my opinion, you cannot learn a language without learning at least a bit of the culture too. Idioms, expressions, and the way people use language say a lot about their culture.

Apart from my own culture, I have by far the best understanding of Anglo-American culture because I speak English. I have never lived in an English-speaking country though. As soon as you speak a language, you can expose yourself to the culture where the language is spoken pretty easily through the internet, movies, etc. HN is a good example. I see what (mostly) American people think, what things are important to them, and the way they approach life on a daily basis on this site.

Re: Bilingualism affords no general cognitive advantages: Study

#318

Post by lelanthran » Mon, Apr 24, 2023, 10:09 AM UTC

helsinkiandrew wrote: post #219

decaffjoe wrote: post #201

This topic misses the forest for the trees. Even if there is a cognitive difference in people who speak multiple languages, the magnitude of the advantage/disadvantage pales in comparison to the far more impactful difference in the understanding of the world that proficiency in another language gives you. If you're a monolingual American born English speaker and you learn Chinese and go live in China for a year, you'…

> This topic misses the forest for the trees. Even if there is a cognitive difference in people who speak multiple languages, the magnitude of the advantage/disadvantage pales in comparison to the far more impactful difference in the understanding of the world that proficiency in another language gives you. But that's not what the paper studied. It's long been stated in popular culture that learning a language increa…

> But that's not what the paper studied. It's long been stated in popular culture that learning a language increases cognitive ability: improves memory, reasoning, and helps reduce onset of senility etc. This study suggests it isn't.

I find that it's actually worse for my wordle performance.

Occasionally I'll have a set of clues that lead to obvious words in my second language, but all these obvious words displace any English word that fits the clue.

I have to consciously rearrange the clues by writing them down in order to get the answer.

Re: Bilingualism affords no general cognitive advantages: Study

#319

Post by crispyambulance » Mon, Apr 24, 2023, 10:10 AM UTC

Epokhe wrote: post #251

crispyambulance wrote: post #30

This is just an anecdotal data point but my mother was bilingual and near the end of her life had a stroke. It impacted her language-- but mostly for English, not nearly as much her native language. She could understand both English and Italian, but would almost entirely speak Italian, not even realizing which language she was speaking. Is that a "cognitive advantage"? Maybe? I am not qualified to answer that. But to…

Was your mother a late bilingual? From this paper [1], we know that for late bilinguals, regions for each language are spatially separated in Broca's area. Broca's area is responsible for speaking, while language understanding is attributed to Wernicke's area*. It's possible that the stroke affected only the part of the Broca's region responsible for English speaking. And since language understanding is handled by an…

As a matter of fact, yes, late bilingual!

Re: Bilingualism affords no general cognitive advantages: Study

#320

Post by eru » Mon, Apr 24, 2023, 10:11 AM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #305

eru wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The most famous linguist in the world is a monolingual. Who is that?

I suspect they meant Chomsky.

I thought so as well, but a quick web search suggests that Noam Chomsky speaks English and Hebrew.

(It's a shame that Noam Chomsky is the most famous linguist, because he's so far from the best or most relevant one.)