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LSD: Not Even Once

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Re: LSD: Not Even Once

#311
post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couple of questions for you about this, if you don't mind: 1. What kind of situation where you in in terms of lodging, social isolation, and access to nature? 2. How often were you taking mushrooms and how much did your dose vary? 3. We're you consuming any other drugs at the time? 4. What time of day did you typically take mushrooms and what did you do during? 5.Did you get sick of rice and beans and how much did yo…

I was by myself, in a tent. When I felt lonely, I moved the tent closer to hiking trails. When I wanted to be alone, I moved it further away. The easiest way to meet people on a mountain is just walking to the summit and sitting there. When I was tired of rice and beans, I hiked down to a little restaurant that had really, really good fried fish. One time I built a hot tub. A park ranger was kind enough to jump start…

Sounds like you should write a book!

Re: LSD: Not Even Once

#312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> hallucinogens sometimes cause minor hallucinations indefinitely The author definitely did not think those were minor side-effects. > What's missing, crucially, is the only useful information- how many of each there are. There is nothing else that is relevant! the evidence that a bad trip can potentially cause permanent damage is useful and relevant. > If "some guy had a bad time" was a robust argument for "never ev…

> the evidence that a bad trip can potentially cause permanent damage is useful and relevant. I would argue that this is not true in isolation! I guess it's not technically wrong, in that a new article is not 0 information, but without an attached probability there isn't much to learn. Frankly, some of the symptoms the author experienced are typical of HPPD, and some are not. Correlation isn't causation, and one data…

> but without an attached probability there isn't much to learn.

But there is an attached probability implicitly. I can make some common sense assumptions about the number of people that have ever done LSD and get a lower bound on the risk (with a huge confidence interval, but still). Of course a chance of say 1 in ten millions is really small, but if the perceived benefits of doing LSD are also small, then that might be enough for me to make up my mind.

> Frankly, some of the symptoms the author experienced are typical of HPPD, and some are not. Correlation isn't causation, and one datapoint absolutely does not show so much as correlation.

This is a good point, I have to decide for myself whether that person is trustworthy or not, and whether their experience is relevant to my case. But if I decide that I can trust their evidence, then I'm going to factor it into my decision, even if it's only one datapoint. If in the future a controlled study on the risks of doing LSD gets published, I can reevaluate my position then.

> You almost certainly partake in activities with a chance to go far more wrong every day! In fact, if the mere possibility of something going wrong is enough to dissuade you, then you shouldn't have needed the article in the first place- there's always a chance things could go horribly wrong!

Yes, I partake in many activities that have a nonzero chance of harming me temporarily or permanently. But with each of those activities, I've decided that the potential benefits outweigh the risks. And mind you, I did not need to read extensive studies with attached probabilities do decide that crossing the road or swimming in the sea is worth the risks.

This touches on another disagreement I have with your original response. We don't live our lives constantly evaluating the risks based on peer reviewed studies with attached probabilities. We rely on common sense and our lived experiences as well as other people's experience that we learn about. The plural of anecdote is not data, but together with a healthy dose of common sense, it can provide acceptable heuristics for evaluating risks and making decisions.

Re: LSD: Not Even Once

#313
post #65

Had a somewhat similar experience. Irritating how harmless and positive psychedelics and cannabis are made out to be in popular culture in spite of the issues like these that can cause.

It's a way for people that want to be addicts to rationalize their addictions, and should be mercilessly shamed out of being so popular.

I think there are no people who get addicted to psychedelics in the classic sence of addiction. They could get addicted like when you are addicted to a book or a movie. Because the experience was so impactful. But most psychedelics have a quick saturation cycle, you get really high levels of tolerance in a really short time. For example, using acid multiple times during a festival will just degrade the experience exponentially until you really dont notice even high doses (not on a physiological level either). So its really hard to structurally abuse it. Having said that, drugs are a bit like extreme sports: they are definetly dangerous when handled without care and never really become safe. Doesnt mean you should or shouldnt use them. Its just a choice. Some people want to take that risk, others dont. Some people want to risk their money on entrepreneurship and other dont. Doesnt mean entrepreneurship is something bad.

Re: LSD: Not Even Once

#314
post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alcohol is more likely to cause psychosis than any drugs.

From my experience of people I know who've drank alcohol and who've used psychedelics, I'd say no, not at all. The psychedelics are probably >1000x more likely to cause psychosis.

Anything happening under the influence is not classified as a psychosis, mind you.

Re: LSD: Not Even Once

#315
post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was by myself, in a tent. When I felt lonely, I moved the tent closer to hiking trails. When I wanted to be alone, I moved it further away. The easiest way to meet people on a mountain is just walking to the summit and sitting there. When I was tired of rice and beans, I hiked down to a little restaurant that had really, really good fried fish. One time I built a hot tub. A park ranger was kind enough to jump start…

Sounds like you should write a book!

They already have one, which was a partial inspiration. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Side_of_the_Mountain

Required reading for 5th graders, imo.

At the end of the day, it's not much different than the thousands of people who hike the PCT every year. I just... didn't walk anywhere.

It was so long ago that I could no more get a book out of it than I could get a book out of "what I did last year." I just... don't remember the details. I remember admitting to myself that I could see ghosts and the moment I figured out why I saw them. I remember the day the air changed and I knew I could either stay another winter or leave. But most days were just, "fill the water, boil the water, make the food, mend the clothes, gather the firewood, tend the fire, sleep."

Re: LSD: Not Even Once

#316
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is anybody supposed to do with this response? Is there a test you can take to rule out long-term negative side effects from psychedelics? If not, aren't you just rolling the dice one way or the other? Mightn't we not just act as if there's a particular mental health complication called "susceptibility to long-term negative side effects of LSD"?

> Is there a test you can take to rule out long-term negative side effects from psychedelics? PiHKAL and TiHKAL reports start with "allergy tests" of low doses around 1/10th of a typical dose. Erowid and other resources (Psychonaut wiki, etc.) list a starting dose of LSD to be around 25mcg, while the author here took 160mcg as a virgin- over 5x the starting dose. It's also not clear whether they tested the drugs, whi…

Wow. I didn't know there were other substances that were potent enough to be delivered via a blotter.

Re: LSD: Not Even Once

#317

I’ve noticed a troubling trend among psychonauts: any reports of terrible experiences or long lasting negative effects of psychedelics are waved away in two different ways: 1 - blaming of the person who had the experience, for not having the proper “set and setting”, or not respecting the drug. 2 - claiming that there’s no such thing as a “bad trip”, and only a challenging one that takes time to integrate. There migh…

Does any of this justify making the substances illegal? > but I worry that we’re underselling the risks Anyone with an ounce of sense knows exactly what bans and prohibition lead to. I don't mean to take away any of the "I had a bad time" stories, my point is prohibiting leads to worse times, mandatory paranoia, decreased likelihood to reach out for help in even medical emergencies, and that's without going into how…

I'm totally in favor of legalization, that wasn't my point at all. I'm not even trying to tell people they shouldn't take psychedelics.

Re: LSD: Not Even Once

#318
post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like you should write a book!

They already have one, which was a partial inspiration. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Side_of_the_Mountain Required reading for 5th graders, imo. At the end of the day, it's not much different than the thousands of people who hike the PCT every year. I just... didn't walk anywhere. It was so long ago that I could no more get a book out of it than I could get a book out of "what I did last year." I just... don't re…

My Side of The Mountain was a good book from what I can remember - read it in 2/3 grade and often think about the spatial constraints of living in a tree trunk when I'm out, in reference to this. Intentionally came to HN this morning to look if you had posted any follow ups; cheers

Re: LSD: Not Even Once

#319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the evidence that a bad trip can potentially cause permanent damage is useful and relevant. I would argue that this is not true in isolation! I guess it's not technically wrong, in that a new article is not 0 information, but without an attached probability there isn't much to learn. Frankly, some of the symptoms the author experienced are typical of HPPD, and some are not. Correlation isn't causation, and one data…

> but without an attached probability there isn't much to learn. But there is an attached probability implicitly. I can make some common sense assumptions about the number of people that have ever done LSD and get a lower bound on the risk (with a huge confidence interval, but still). Of course a chance of say 1 in ten millions is really small, but if the perceived benefits of doing LSD are also small, then that migh…

I think I'm making two assumptions here, and they explain the bulk of our disagreement.

First my intuition here is that in most situations, we should expect any specific example brought to our attention to be actively misleading. Out of thousands of stories about LSD, this one happens to be on the HN frontpage- should we not expect it to be unusual in some way?

Second, I think I assume that for any given activity, there exists at least one story about it that is very bad. So finding such a story shouldn't swing your judgement too much. It isn't new information!

To put it another way, we can't possibly be using the pair (average case gain, example very bad outcome) to judge if things are worth it. When we decide to cross the road, we are drawing on our extensive record of safely crossing roads, as well as our highly accurate model of the road (I would feel much less safe crossing a highway at rush hour than a suburban road at 1am) to judge the situation. If we just drew on benefit (get to the other side of the road) and potential cost (get hit by car), there would be no difference between crossing at an intersection and jaywalking. Clearly there's a probability component which is not drawn from the ether, but instead from our internal model of how the world works. I think that in your argument, this would be the "healthy dose of common sense".

In the case of drug effects, or in medical interventions overall, we don't have that benefit. Here anecdotes and common sense commonly steer us wrong- that is the undeniable conclusion of decades of disappointing research.

My specific disagreement with the way the author framed their point, which prompted my response, was how they felt that people who have had good experiences and talked about them were "naive", because the author themselves had a bad experience. I take the perspective that those people are no more wrong than the author- both are generalizing entirely from their own experiences. But your perspective would seem to argue that those people talking about how LSD is great are correct! After all, many psychonauts have tried LSD many times and come out fine, and have seen others do the same. They are reasoning from anecdotes and a healthy dose of common sense.

It may well be the case that for most peoples' risk budgets, LSD isn't worth it. The author obviously things so. But at no point do they make that argument! The sum total of the post is "Some people anecdotally say they get great benefit from LSD", "I had extremely negative effects from LSD (as do some other people)", followed by "therefore LSD is definitely not worth it for anyone". Huh? It's totally understandable why someone who went through what the author did would feel this way. It would be entirely unreasonable to expect someone bitten by a shark to couch their very real and very bad lived experience with the statistics on shark attacks. Hell, there's a legitimate point to be made about how the spiritualism and hype around psychedelics mean that positive anecdotes are treated as data while negative anecdotes are brushed under the rug. But the author, however understandably, did not make that point.

Re: LSD: Not Even Once

#320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like this kind of whataboutism misses the mark. To be clear - I'm in no way advocating for alcohol, or against its damages to society. But one like the article is about doing something safely, once, in your own place. Dangers of alcohol are generally overdose, long term abuse, and accidents. How many people drink one beer in the safety of their home with trusted people, and have their life turned upside down?

I get where you’re coming from but I’m comparing two drugs here, LSD and Alcohol. One of those communities is underground, mixed use with harder drugs, associated in large part with people who are “less than” in society. There’s no way to get well tested, accurately dosed LSD without performing those tests yourself. The other community has companies controlling everything, ads playing to all ages permanently, they ha…

If the same amount of people had access to LSD by simply going to the gas station or local grocery, that is one very big if lol. I get the vibe you are pro-drugs, which isn't a terrible thing IMO, but this thought experiment is somewhat ridiculous on the sole fact that we have an increasingly sick society. The mental health statistics in this nation should give giant red flags.

In a vacuum your experiment just might work, but probably not in 2023 American society. There is a lot more non-biased scientific study that needs done before unleashing these powerful substances on the population. I would suggest removing bias and looking at it in a neutral way, as I'm sure a happy medium can be established here.

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