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Alternative facts: How the media failed Julian Assange

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Re: Alternative facts: How the media failed Julian Assange

#311

Post by mariusor »

bayesian_horse wrote: post #254
mariusor wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're rewriting history. When he asked for asylum Assange was only seeking refuge from being questioned on Swedish soil about the rape allegations from 2010. When he was granted asylum however, he breached the bail conditions from the UK and there were indeed two governments after him. But, I repeat, no espionage/computer charges were known until 2018.

He assumed, and rightly so, that the US government was after him. Otherwise he wouldn't have stayed in the embassy past the charges in Sweden getting dropped. It is immaterial if the indictments were known or even already existed.

For me there's a slight nuance difference between being a fugitive from "official prosecution" by the US and being a fugitive because "he feared" prosecution. The US government had official communication when he entered the embassy that he is not on their wanted list.

Re: Alternative facts: How the media failed Julian Assange

#312

Post by foldr »

DANmode wrote: post #307
foldr wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure what your point is. It’s clear from what’s quoted in the emails that some GHCQ employees are simply speculating based on the timing of the rape allegations. That’s something that a bunch of people outside GHCQ were also doing at the time. The emails were handed over because they weren’t considered to be classified information. So it’s quite unlikely that they reveal discussions among people who had any insid…

Your point (appears to be?) that GCHQ staff are on par with other Monday morning armchair quarterbacks; seems weak.

It’s clearly the case in instances where they have the same information as everyone else.

Re: Alternative facts: How the media failed Julian Assange

#313

Post by _djo_ »

DANmode wrote: post #307
foldr wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure what your point is. It’s clear from what’s quoted in the emails that some GHCQ employees are simply speculating based on the timing of the rape allegations. That’s something that a bunch of people outside GHCQ were also doing at the time. The emails were handed over because they weren’t considered to be classified information. So it’s quite unlikely that they reveal discussions among people who had any insid…

Your point (appears to be?) that GCHQ staff are on par with other Monday morning armchair quarterbacks; seems weak.

Information inside agencies like GCHQ is strictly compartmentalised, with only the most senior staff having broad cross-programme understanding and access.

In fact, people can be even more cut off from information if they're at a low enough level inside an agency like that because they're forbidden from viewing leaked information to avoid jeopardising their clearances.

A GHCQ staffer working on, say, satellite signals intelligence for one of the regional desks is almost certainly not going to have any useful inside information on the case of someone like Assange.

Re: Alternative facts: How the media failed Julian Assange

#314

Post by _kbh_ »

dontlaugh wrote: post #294
giantrobot wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As we've seen since 2014, Russian "peace" overtures are "give us everything and you get nothing". They've also repeatedly proven that they won't honor agreements. They unilaterally broke the Minsk accords just last year with their invasion of Ukraine. There's no utility in "peace" talks with a dishonest party. All it does is provide the dishonest party with ammunition for propaganda. When the other side balls at thei…

The Ukrainian state has been breaking the Minsk accords for almost as long as they’ve each been in place, most blatantly by bombing the Donbas. Not that this would justify invasion of Ukraine proper, but let’s not pretend this has ever been one-sided. Wars end through peace agreements. Deliberately preventing them is what war mongers do.

> Wars end through peace agreements. Deliberately preventing them is what war mongers do.

How can you make a peace agreement with a country that doesn't follow its own agreements?.

Russia already promised decades ago to never violate the territorial integrity of Ukraine way before 2014 and that ended up not being worth the paper it was written on.

Re: Alternative facts: How the media failed Julian Assange

#315

Post by hulitu »

fmajid wrote: post #258
calibas wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a spectrum, and certain countries embody the ideal more than others. I don't think a completely open and honest democracy exists yet though.

Iceland or Switzerland?

> Iceland or Switzerland?

Yeah, right. Switzerland, where contracts with private companies are censored so the public does not see how much money they lose.

Re: Alternative facts: How the media failed Julian Assange

#316

Post by 93po »

lamontcg wrote: post #305
93po wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The evidence is that Assange emphatically said it wasn't Russia, flatly said it was someone internal to the DNC, and he's never been shown to be wrong or dishonest about Wikileaks business. Additionally, Assange has implied it was Seth Rich as strongly as he can without actually confirming he was the source, because he's bound by journalistic ethics and his agreement with his source to not reveal them. Lastly, the Mu…

> The evidence is that Assange emphatically said it wasn't Russia, That isn't evidence. Find some factual evidence that Seth Rich ever touched the e-mails or had access to them. Best evidence I think that its clearly the Russian GRU that gave it to Wikileaks is Assange trying to blame it on Seth Rich. Because of what he's done to Seth Rich's family I'm quite happy to see him rotting in a jail cell. In an ideal world,…

Ok, so an independent, world renowned, reputable journalist with a flawless track record reporting something isn't evidence. If that's your bar then I don't know what to tell you. I guess just keep believing whatever corporate media tells you to believe. It's never been dishonest and biased before.

Re: Alternative facts: How the media failed Julian Assange

#317

Post by hulitu »

ip26 wrote: post #195
calibas wrote: post #57

There's authoritarianism, where government knows what's best for everyone and keeps secrets to "protect" its citizens. Then there's democracy, where the government is open and honest so the people can make informed decisions on how best to run their government. In my opinion, one of the best ways of identifying an authoritarian is to ask them their opinions on Snowden or Assange.

Congratulations, you’ve managed to construct this into a classic “with us or against us” framework, a popular tool among authoritarians.

> a popular tool among authoritarians

And a popular tool among the so called "democracies".

Re: Alternative facts: How the media failed Julian Assange

#318

Post by hulitu »

matthewdgreen wrote: post #58
psychphysic wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is precisely it. My pet theory is that the true effect of "cancel culture" isn't really on rich/popular people. But the public cancelling means on an individual level social groups eventually become homogeneous in their views. The result is you must eject any idea, person or news source which doesn't 100% align with the current group values. The outcome is that entities which don't take sides are the real victim…

I think it’s a little more complicated. By far the biggest piece is that WikiLeaks’ relevance has declined over the past several years. When Assange was first summoned to appear in Sweden I think there was an enormous spotlight on him. This might not have saved him from being convicted for the crime he was accused of, but it might have been enough to dissuade the Obama administration from seeking to extradite him. Th…

> but it might have been enough to dissuade the Obama administration from seeking to extradite him

Except that the reason they fabricated the Sweden case was precisely to make him an easy target for US.

Re: Alternative facts: How the media failed Julian Assange

#319

Post by Gud »

hulitu wrote: post #315
fmajid wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Iceland or Switzerland?

> Iceland or Switzerland? Yeah, right. Switzerland, where contracts with private companies are censored so the public does not see how much money they lose.

This is by democratic choice though. If the public don't want this, they can always hold a binding referendum. Unlike any other country on earth.

Re: Alternative facts: How the media failed Julian Assange

#320

Post by apercu »

phphphphp wrote: post #128
kerkeslager wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The truth is a narrative. Not all narratives are true, but calling something a narrative doesn't in any way disprove it. Would you like to actually call out anything in Collateral Murder that you think wasn't exposing the truth? I'm old enough to remember Collateral Murder. I'm old enough to remember it's video footage. Of members of the US military murdering people, and laughing about it. You can't dismiss that as "…

I make no claim that collateral murder did not represent a war crime, I make no claim that the release of collateral murder was a bad thing, rather, I am claiming that Julian Assange was never a noble person releasing leaked footage to expose the truth, he was a political performer, creating the narrative that he wanted to create, using leaks as props. Julian Assange had no loyalty to the truth (as has been shown in…

Agreed. I find both of these things true:

People in government positions in the US and UK abused their power.

Julian Assange is not a good, or honest person.

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