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More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

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Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#311

Post by specialist »

brightball wrote: post #293
alsaaro wrote: post #88

As someone who has worked two of the most intensive blue collar jobs, people should be wary of romanticizing blue collar work. Blue collar workers are expected to really work at their jobs. White collar workers can chill if there is no work to be done, or be sent home early with pay, or take a relaxation day and just browse the internet and listen to podcasts. They have perks, you see white collar workers leaving wor…

Depends on the job I think. Every person I know who does any type of home contracting work that I know of is drowning in business and raising rates because of it. - HVAC - Plumbing - Electrical - General Contractor - Drywall specialists - Roofers

My millenial aged kid became an electrician. Mostly residential. Mostly remodel (vs new construction). The type of clientile that want fancy lights and legit security systems. And now early adopters of solar, batteries, and EVs.

He'll have plenty of work for decades.

It is hard on the body though. Which is why he stayed residential. So he claims; I would have guessed new construction commercial would easiest physically. Especially if you specialize (eg elevators).

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#312

Post by Consultant32452 »

azinman2 wrote: post #40
pclmulqdq wrote: post #26

College seems to have ~3 uses from students' perspectives: 1. A trade school for technical professionals who actually need specialist education (scientists, engineers, lawyers, doctors, etc.) 2. A finishing school for the elite 3. A blood sports arena for the brilliant to complete for professorships (almost all of whom will lose and be saddled with 6 figures of debt and 7 figures of opportunity cost) A lot of people…

It also grows the intellectual souls, exposing people to far more depth of thought. It also builds professional networks. If a person is smart enough to receive it, more education is almost always good. Of course money is a factor, and schools have gotten insanely expensive. I’m glad to hear that more people are finding alternative routes - it shouldn’t be that everyone needs college because quite frankly many career…

>It also grows the intellectual souls, exposing people to far more depth of thought.

This is a thing that people say, but I've never seen it happen. To the extent that people are exposed to depth of thought or new ideas, the people interested would have found those things faster, cheaper, and more frequently if they avoided the rat race parts of university programs.

It's similar to the thought that university degrees help people economically, but that is rarely the case. We've spent many human generations trying to figure out how to move the needle and it's mostly IQ + big 5 personality + luck. The people that COULD have gotten into Harvard but chose to go elsewhere wind up with the same outcomes as the people who DO go to Harvard.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#313

Post by throwawaysleep »

pcurve wrote: post #259

There's a large caveat towards the end of the article: “People get more specific skills in apprenticeship programs than they do in college and while that helps them enter the labor market with greater ease at the beginning of their careers, later in life their skills depreciate” “So at age 45 or 50 or 55, these people are less likely to stay in the labor market because their skills are less valuable.” By contrast, a…

I’d point out that all the people whining about being “left behind” and blaming Mexicans for it are the blue collar types who would have mocked college back in the day.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#314

Post by nonethewiser »

Avshalom wrote: post #173
onepointsixC wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It shouldn't be unrealistically romanticized, but with University tuitions only reaching ever higher, much faster than inflation what other good solution is there for Young Adults to get a career and secure their financial future? These options being elevated precisely because of out of control student debt and universities which face zero consequences to financially crippling their pupils.

well we made university free in New Mexico, and it's free or cheap in a lot of other places.

That’s great. I’m trying to figure out how it’s funded. Did they have to raise new funding? Levy new taxes? Just wondering how they are able to afford it. I feel like this is how colleges should be. The minimal possible tuition required to operate. It’s not like tuition increases have gone towards retaining professors or something.

It’s pretty insane to think 15k/year for in state tuition is “cheap.”

Edit: it seams like it’s at least partially funded by lottery tickets. Which essentially means it’s just prioritized higher than other states. Because most states find things through lottery tickets but don’t have tuition free college.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#315

Post by [deleted] »

m463 wrote: post #195
pclmulqdq wrote: post #26

College seems to have ~3 uses from students' perspectives: 1. A trade school for technical professionals who actually need specialist education (scientists, engineers, lawyers, doctors, etc.) 2. A finishing school for the elite 3. A blood sports arena for the brilliant to complete for professorships (almost all of whom will lose and be saddled with 6 figures of debt and 7 figures of opportunity cost) A lot of people…

I don't think going to college can be easily summed up (and dismissed) with a numbered list of items. Sort of like saying marriage is just to have kids, get a tax benefit, and save on rent.

[deleted]

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#316

Post by mtrower »

morpheuskafka wrote: post #142
pclmulqdq wrote: post #26

College seems to have ~3 uses from students' perspectives: 1. A trade school for technical professionals who actually need specialist education (scientists, engineers, lawyers, doctors, etc.) 2. A finishing school for the elite 3. A blood sports arena for the brilliant to complete for professorships (almost all of whom will lose and be saddled with 6 figures of debt and 7 figures of opportunity cost) A lot of people…

> fields that don't truly need the education Even if that's true, isn't part of the problem that a lot of those office jobs that don't absolutely need the knowledge still expect a bachelor's degree? Even if it was nothing more than "finishing school," you're going to have a hard time finding a job in HR, sales, etc. without college.

What is meant by finishing school in this thread? I have a feeling this is not the definition being used https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finishing_school

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#317

Post by phpisthebest »

Dudeman112 wrote: post #309
phpisthebest wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>4 years of education on a daily basis. Is it? Really??? For all degrees and all programs.. that is the claim... but I just do not see that manifest in reality. Seem you have a very inflated view of the programs... just how much debt are you attempting to justify?

>Seem you have a very inflated view of the programs... just how much debt are you attempting to justify? I agree with them and I had 0 debt. Making higher education free was one of the few things I think the government back home actually didn't drop the ball on Apparently it's done wonders for a bunch of industries

Well like with many things. Context matters. here we are talking about the dysfunctional schooling system of the US. Other nations have different style of education that may be actual education.

There are also aspects and some intuitions in the US worth it. But they are few and far between, and becoming more rare as the institutions in the US move away from actual education, and more towards political based goals

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#318

Post by nonethewiser »

wanderingmind wrote: post #247
alsaaro wrote: post #88

As someone who has worked two of the most intensive blue collar jobs, people should be wary of romanticizing blue collar work. Blue collar workers are expected to really work at their jobs. White collar workers can chill if there is no work to be done, or be sent home early with pay, or take a relaxation day and just browse the internet and listen to podcasts. They have perks, you see white collar workers leaving wor…

While agreeing with all your points, I think blue collar jobs will get their mojo back soon, especially something not a repeat work, as they will be one of the few jobs that will remain after LLM and AI has automated most of the desk jobs (or at least severely reduced the number of people needed to be employed in them).

It’s also far more durable. Your startup might disappear in a downturn but your furnace won’t.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#319

Post by WarOnPrivacy »

A key facet seems to be missing from the threads here. Most Americans can't afford a 4-year college.

ref: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=study+found+percent+of+americans+c...

Our (until recently, inexpensive) metro market requires 3-4 typical incomes to meet basic expenses. The cost of a 4-year college simply isn't available for most folks.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#320

Post by avidphantasm »

xyzelement wrote: post #98
azinman2 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Re: critical analysis. I agree with you that inconvenient truths now get muzzled because they don’t fit an acceptable meta-narrative. This is very problematic for society and when taken to the maximum, can lead to thinks like Cambodia’s attempt at restarting society by killing all those who didn’t fit the model they were looking for. > If that's what you are hungry for, college is perhaps even your least likely bet.…

Re second point, I mean something else. 200 years ago I had to go to university because why? That's where the books and smart people were concentrated. So I would pay a lot of money and physically relocate myself to access those books and people. Now? I can study online, I can read, I can converse with super bright people of my chosing without the friction and limits of doing that in a college environment.

I get what you are saying, but most people couldn’t afford the journal subscriptions necessary to get a graduate education, or to learn any field in depth. Hopefully open access obviates this problem. The other value of being on campus is having access to professors. Not clear how to find the same master-apprentice relationship outside of academia for some fields.
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