Zero energy ready homes are coming • Hacker News Board

Re: Zero energy ready homes are coming

#311

Post by boulos » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 2:46 AM UTC

DoreenMichele wrote: post #290

dublinben wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you think that project is relying on passive solar? In green building that concept has been largely superseded by newer standards like Passive House and Net Zero which generally rely more on air sealing and super-insulation with highly insulated windows.

You are correct that they are viewed as different systems and tend to rely on different strategies: https://ecokit.us/passive-solar-design-vs-passive-house/#:~:... . To me, it's almost a matter of semantics. In passive solar building design, windows, walls, and floors are made to collect, store, reflect, and distribute solar energy, in the form of heat in the winter and reject solar heat in the summer. This is called…

> My understanding is passive house comes from a German project. It shouldn't surprise anyone that strategies which work well in Germany differ from strategies that work in warmer climates.

It actually started in North America around the time of the oil embargo as a mechanism to reduce energy costs. (See the history section of https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_house). Once that shock passed, people went back to not caring.

Even at the time, and still today, most write ups are focused on harsh climates like New England or Canada in Winter, because it's harder. It's also the case that in milder climates, the cost to make your home passive has historically been higher than just paying the subsidized bills (and/or requires capital). So most of the US hasn't cared (again) until recently.

Re: Zero energy ready homes are coming

#312

Post by seizethecheese » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 2:49 AM UTC

Fauntleroy wrote: post #137

kitsunesoba wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm no expert in this field, but I think that changing zoning in current suburbs to mixed use would go a long way towards fixing them. The central wards of Tokyo are surrounded by such mixed use residential areas and it works extremely well, with most necessities being within walking distance or at worst biking distance. It wouldn't fix the suburbs' lack of density, but it'd still be a marked improvement. It'd theore…

If you can find a way to convince Americans they don't all need a yard that can easily fit 6 (japanese) houses, we'll be well on our way.

Many many single family lots are turning into 6 townhouses in Seattle and selling quite well.

Re: Zero energy ready homes are coming

#313

Post by schiffern » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 2:56 AM UTC

boulos wrote: post #311

DoreenMichele wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are correct that they are viewed as different systems and tend to rely on different strategies: https://ecokit.us/passive-solar-design-vs-passive-house/#:~:... . To me, it's almost a matter of semantics. In passive solar building design, windows, walls, and floors are made to collect, store, reflect, and distribute solar energy, in the form of heat in the winter and reject solar heat in the summer. This is called…

> My understanding is passive house comes from a German project. It shouldn't surprise anyone that strategies which work well in Germany differ from strategies that work in warmer climates. It actually started in North America around the time of the oil embargo as a mechanism to reduce energy costs. (See the history section of https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_house ). Once that shock passed, people went back t…

Early American "superinsulated houses" (the term-of-art at the time) used 12+ inches of foam, but often forgot about humidity and ventilation. As a result, many early examples became mushroom food.

Modern passive houses use HRV/ERV technology, so they achieve high efficiency while avoiding moisture and mold.

As usual, it's the early adopters that find the problems.

Re: Zero energy ready homes are coming

#314

Post by twblalock » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 2:59 AM UTC

kitsunesoba wrote: post #134

xyst wrote: post #64

I just see this as another subsidy for single family housing developments. The home may be "zero energy ready" or whatever greenwashing term they want to use. But the fact is they are spending that energy in driving from the sticks (in some cases >20 miles away) and back, driving from their home to the grocery store and back, driving to areas of interest (ie, parks, restaurants, doctors appointments). All of this is…

I'm no expert in this field, but I think that changing zoning in current suburbs to mixed use would go a long way towards fixing them. The central wards of Tokyo are surrounded by such mixed use residential areas and it works extremely well, with most necessities being within walking distance or at worst biking distance. It wouldn't fix the suburbs' lack of density, but it'd still be a marked improvement. It'd theore…

People keep bringing up Tokyo but it's not really relevant. Yes, Tokyo has mixed zoning. But it was developed the way it is because the people who live there want it to be that way. It's also only livable because the people there have a culture that makes it possible to live in high density without high levels of crime, noise, and filth.

Americans in the same situation would not have built something like Tokyo.

If you're going to bring up Tokyo you should also bring up Houston. Houston is what most American cities would look like if the people who lived there were able to build what they wanted. Most Americans want to live in detached homes that they own, and they prefer cars to public transit.

Re: Zero energy ready homes are coming

#315

Post by closeparen » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 2:59 AM UTC

JeremyNT wrote: post #289

closeparen wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the same spending power required to live in a house in the suburbs, or rurally, could usually be used to live in higher density living, closer to urban centers Have you seen what condos cost? This is not true. Homeownership in walkable neighborhoods is basically reserved for plutocrats.

This is the strange/sad truth. Clearly walkable neighbourhoods are highly desirable, and in the US people pay a massive premium to get them because they are so scarce. Yet, for some reason, new construction in the suburbs is all disconnected and almost never walkable. There's a huge disconnect between what people want and what developers are actually building. The kind of density that leads to walkability seems to on…

Almost all actually-existing cities replaced less intense uses on the same land. They simply had the foresight to get this done before we recognized a community’s right to veto such changes. The next ones will not come until we have stopped recognizing it.

Re: Zero energy ready homes are coming

#316

Post by stouset » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 3:01 AM UTC

johnweldon wrote: post #297

stouset wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Someone preferring to live in a suburb does not mean they're generating externalities at that level. They are, but those externalities are simply not as straightforwardly obvious.

Do you have any references for this statement. I'm not arguing there are no externalities (there are externalities in just about every choice we make). I just haven't been convinced that there are common egregious externalities at the level of dumping raw sewage into the creek.

How many sources would you like?

Of course it’s not going to be on the same order as literally dumping raw sewage into the surrounding area. But there is an enormous body of research demonstrating the overall drain of resources from economically-productive urban areas out to costly suburban ones.

Then there’s the carbon cost of enormous, congested highways and stroads where people idle in traffic for hours of their day. Or the overall inefficiency of providing general city services (water, power, sewer) to people in comparatively sparse areas (which ties back into the resource drain imposed on denser areas).

Re: Zero energy ready homes are coming

#317

Post by bluGill » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 3:05 AM UTC

stouset wrote: post #291

bluGill wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need to quit reading strongtowns and start thinking. Every city has deferred maintenance and unmeetable promises, most of it is maintenance that it is more cost effective to defer. We don't need perfectly smooth streets, so defer minor maintenance makes sense. Most unmeetable promisees are things they never intended to meet. Suburbs have existed for over 100 years. If there was a problem we would see it all over,…

> Suburbs have existed for over 100 years. If there was a problem we would see it all over, not just in a few random ones. "We've been throwing carbon dioxide into the atmosphere for hundreds of years. If this was a problem we'd be seeing the consequences of it by now." Anyone who's looking does see the problem. Meanwhile there's a critical mass of people whose lives and identity revolve around the status quo and who…

There is a problem i agree, but strongtowns does not see the real problems and so is not helpful in solving them.

Re: Zero energy ready homes are coming

#318

Post by jjav » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 3:05 AM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #306

jjav wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> NYC is completely different because the speed cars travel at is actually 25mph Unless there's traffic jam, driving speeds in the 4+ lane avenues in Manhattan is certainly higher than 25mph. (Source: used to spend all my weekends in Manhattan so I've done a lot of walking and cycling all over it.) > Even as a healthy young guy, I feel intimidated walking across 80ft+ of vehicles that can be traveling at high speeds.…

>You should not be crossing when cars are traveling at any speed other than zero, that's what the pedestrian crossing lights are for. You would never finish crossing then. Lots of times there are cars traveling in the lanes that are approaching the intersection, and you have no way of knowing if they are paying attention or not to the traffic lights. At low speeds, you can eyeball them sufficiently decreasing their s…

> >You should not be crossing when cars are traveling at any speed other than zero, that's what the pedestrian crossing lights are for.

> You would never finish crossing then.

Well I don't know what to say, it is quite the wild west wherever you live.

Around here (California) and everywhere else I've happened to live, all kinds of people (including the very old with mobility problems) finish crossing safely all day long without any trouble.

And when someone particularly slow is crossing and doesn't get to the other side before the pedestrian light goes red, cars just wait. Nobody's going to run them over just because the light changed.

Re: Zero energy ready homes are coming

#319

Post by closeparen » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 3:06 AM UTC

johnweldon wrote: post #249

tshaddox wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The fact that so many people choose to live in suburbs, or the "sticks", suggests that there is something desirable to _them_ about living there. The fact that people dump their sewage into the creek instead of paying for proper sewage treatment/disposal suggests that there's something desirable to _them_ to do the easier and cheaper thing. Of course! The problem is externalities.

I think your comment is a bit misleading. Dumping sewage into a creek is an externality that is bad. Someone preferring to live in a suburb does not mean they're generating externalities at that level. The very reason I pushed back on the comment was because of this black and white thinking. Saying > The fact that people dump their sewage into the creek instead of paying for proper sewage treatment/disposal suggests…

Driving is straightforwardly bad for everyone around you. Carbon emissions, particulate emissions, traffic congestion, noise, safety, you name it. The more of it you do, the worse it is. Suburbia is built around lots and lots of driving. It’s not complicated.

Re: Zero energy ready homes are coming

#320

Post by schiffern » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 3:08 AM UTC

Xeoncross wrote: post #287

dublinben wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you think that project is relying on passive solar? In green building that concept has been largely superseded by newer standards like Passive House and Net Zero which generally rely more on air sealing and super-insulation with highly insulated windows.

There is going to be a lot of health fallout though as people start having oxygen depletion from tightly-sealed houses. It's important that even well sealed homes have both A/C fresh air sources as well as ERV/HRV systems that can recapture the heat/cold the house has while replacing the CO2 with outside air.

>oxygen depletion

I wish people would stop conflating low oxygen with high CO2.

Even at 5000 ppm CO2 (which "significantly impair" attention, executive function, and risky decision-making[0]), the oxygen has only dropped from 20.95% to 20.45%. This ~2.5% difference is negligible, equivalent to natural variations in atmospheric pressure.

The buildup of CO2 is the issue, not the depletion of O2.

[0] https://www.mdpi.com/2073-4433/13/6/891