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World’s largest four-day work week trial finds few are going back

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Re: World’s largest four-day work week trial finds few are going back

#311
post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the Netherlands I also take a 20% gross pay cut. So net, that's more like a 10% pay cut. It doesn't pay to work 5 days in NL.

This doesn’t make sense to me unless it moves you into a lower tax bracket or something. Eg. If you made $100k and were taxed at 30%, you’d get paid net $70k. If you took a 20% gross pay cut, you’d get paid $80k gross and $56k net. 56k is 20% less than 70k.

Look at the marginal tax rate in Finland and it makes you think the rationality of working at all:

https://www.veronmaksajat.fi/luvut/Laskelmat/Palkansaajan-ve... The lower tax bracket of 38kEur give a margin tax of a whopping 49,5% and it gets progressively worse after that.

Re: World’s largest four-day work week trial finds few are going back

#312

When was a mathematician, I worked as hard as I could until I was mentally exhausted. I actually calculated how much I worked per week over a period of two years. On actual "hard thinking", like working through logic, I spent about 7 hours. There was another 7 hours writing and clarifying topics, and another 6 hours or so on classes, seminars (sort of like meetings, but productive). That gives a total of 20 hours per…

>I feel the only reason why we have 9-5, Monday to Friday jobs is because of infantile narcissists who have no other purpose in life than to go to work and push people like machines. Hanlon's razor applies here. As does Chesterton's Fence for that matter The 40 hour work week was won in actual blood from labor activists long before any of us were conceptions. The fact that we still live within it, is simply a proof o…

Intertia is a big part of the 40 hour standard; I'd anticipate legal structures that start penalising companies that offer different hours.

One of the situations I hear a lot of chatter about is people working 2+ jobs because they can't find the hours to make ends meet. Picking on US retail hours, there seems to have been a 2nd quiet revolution that has gotten the average hours down to 30/week without quite as much bloodshed [0].

It isn't that obvious that the efforts of labour activists have had that much impact. It is unlikely that they have managed to hold back the laws of supply and demand over the long term. If companies got much better results at 60 hours/week or 20 hours/week that is how long people would be working.

Eg, look at how quickly we ended up with mass working form home. It has been a possibility for ~20 years, and it took one shock and suddenly it seems to be embedded as far as it is likely to go. No bloodshed. That is a much bigger win than a 40 hour workweek. I'll sign whatever hours you want me to pretend to work if I can do it from my bedroom. 168 hour/week contract WFH? Works for me I suppose.

[0] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/AWHAERT/

Re: World’s largest four-day work week trial finds few are going back

#313
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>We all know this "40 hours" nonsense is just historical happenstance, not some ideal or even well-reasoned number, let alone balanced in the interest of the overwhelming majority (working people). The more and more I see cases like this that exist, the more I feel it's yet more supporting evidence that the US is a failing democracy. We can point fingers and play responsibility games, we can claim its minority protec…

To make this claim about the US is to overlook that basically all western countries have 40 hour work weeks. Are they all failing democracies too? Its a shame how many Americans are too busy hating America to look outside the border and see how good they have it, but also how most of their “uniquely American” problems are not unique at all. (My perspective is as an Australian living in America. And my comment doesn’t…

>To make this claim about the US is to overlook that basically all western countries have 40 hour work weeks. >Are they all failing democracies too?

If said populations voters in general think otherwise and its viable to execute, then yes. If not, then no.

The point has very little to do with 40-hour work weeks and almost everything to do with the lack of policy reflecting reasonably implementable wants and needs of the population at large (again, while not trampling on human rights of minorities).

The reason you see Americans hating on America is because they're unhappy in some way shape or form. Looking at those complaints externally, one might be inclined to dismiss those complaints because the situation is better than other locations relatively speaking in some respect from outside looking in. Ultimately, that doesn't negate the unhappiness of those complaining or a failure of a system designed specifically to address those shared views and frustrations through policy. It's possible for some things to appear "better" from the outside relative to another basis and still be undesirable by the population at large.

I'm not well versed in labor rights in every country but in the US its not great, I can assure you. If you're comparing it to Somalia, it's probably amazing. That doesn't mean it can't be better in the US. Americans are often comparing America to itself and usually in a historic context: are things getting better or worse? We want to see progress, improvement in our lives or at least stability. That's of course not always possible because reality sinks in. When the pandemic hit, it wasn't a situation we could just "policy away" a viral infection without tradeoffs (social distancing, isolation, etc. were policy based but had ramifications on people's lives).

I had a colleague from India who shared this frustration, they came from poverty in their country and moved into a high paying tech position here and would often bring up the same point that while so many complain in the US, "its better than many places." That point isn't invalid but that doesn't dismiss the desire to make it even better here, especially if it's possible and it's not the case of simple power imbalances. I came from poverty in the US. Maybe my poverty wasn't as bad as his poverty as a basis of comparison? Does the comparison really matter? We both want enjoyable happy present and future lives, let's focus on that instead of "who had/has it worse" and not use the worst to set the bar of progress.

So, whether or not the situation is worse somewhere else doesn't invalidate frustration unless you are against progress for a population in general.

Re: World’s largest four-day work week trial finds few are going back

#314
I've been doing a 4 day work week since early 2019 and it this has had a tremendous positive effect on my mental and physical wellbeing. Despite being in a 4 day work week just over 4 years now I can confidently say that I'm not thinking now that 4 days are too many and I need to go down to 3 days. Actually I am very content with 4 days. I am a lot more productive than I was during 5 day work weeks. I feel so much fresher on Mondays and ready to tackle some programming tasks that I even get up early on Mondays nowadays and enjoy to have an early start. I WFH (something I already did before Covid) and when I wake up I normally make myself a coffee and then I'm straight at my laptop. The hours between 7:30 AM and 11:00 AM are my most productive hours of the day. Often I have some late meetings which can drag until 6PM so I tend to take a longer lunch break which allows me to hit the tennis court during sunlight hours and have a hit at my local club or go to the gym. By 6PM I have had a super productive work day and got a good 1.5-2h sport session in as well. In the evening I am completely free for my family which is a big bonus point.

The biggest benefit of the 4 day work week is that I never get to the point where I run low on energy as the week progresses. A lot of my friends who work 5 days never have enough time to recover over the weekend so they enter work on Monday still not fully recharged and then deplete their energy even more, so as weeks go on they get more tired until they have a holiday or fall ill for a few days. This never happens to me, so not only do I feel more focused and energetic for work, family and hobbies but also it means that when my weekend starts on Friday I don't actually waste my Friday to mostly sleep and recover. I honestly can't see myself to ever go back to 5 days a week, unless I was really desperate for a short term income boost where someone pays me an unreasonable high amount to slave myself off for a few months but otherwise there is no way I will sacrifice my health for something where I don't even arguably achieve more than in my current 4 day work week.

Re: World’s largest four-day work week trial finds few are going back

#315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you make the same interpretation when companies cut 20% of the workforce instead?

There is no doubt that most companies (and the government) could cut 20% with no effect on their productivity. It's just no practical to ride the razors edge of leanness and it also would probably harm morale. Twitter cut 80% of it's workforce and is becoming MORE productive.

>Twitter cut 80% of it's workforce and is becoming MORE productive.

Yet they lost most of their top advertisers, have cut APIs since they broke, had multiple significant outages, had it's value more than cut in half by investment firms, took on massive debt, is failing to pay basic bills in many countries including the US, has a CEO that got upset that his tweets were not the most popular so installed a special exemption for himself to push his tweets and his alone to users flooding them so badly he had to tune it down.....

Yeah, it's going great.

Re: World’s largest four-day work week trial finds few are going back

#316
post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Should be" being the operative term. I've yet to work anywhere where tickets consistently up to date, and often ceremony like standup is where we find out that something was left out. If you consistently manage to do so across your team without it, then, hey, that's amazing.

What's stopping PMs to remind people on slack to update their tickets? In my previous job we had a task blocked in our calendar every Tuesday 10AM to 12 PM just for updating Jira and Gitlab tickets. Having people gather in circles physically or jumping on calls every single day just for this bullshit that can be done async is absolutely insane.

There are plenty of things you can try, some of which might even work better for some teams, and worse for others. The point is not that you can't do without a standup, but that whether or not you individually perceive the standup as a benefit isn't necessarily relevant. The relevant question is really whether or not the standup is the least disruptive tool to ensure your team keeps everything up to date. As I said in my original comment: The more disciplined a team is, the less you need that ceremony.

Re: World’s largest four-day work week trial finds few are going back

#317
post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stand-ups aren't really for devs, but for the team leads and PMs trying to track work. If they take more than ~5 min or so, people aren't prepared and that should be a red flag for team leads. That said, every day is often overkill, and most of the value can be gotten by keeping tickets up to date. But "ceremony" is often a tool to get people to keep things up to date by formalizing the expectation that it'll get pic…

I challenge PMs and leads to do a project, maybe just a small one, where you don't hold a group meeting even once over the course of the project. I've led a 9 month project building an entire SaaS project this way. It was definitely hard work making sure my tickets were in good order, that i had a good design feedback loop with the designer (really just the CEO plopping components into figma), and that I had another…

I've been on "all" sides of that table, and I've had teams where I had to force daily calls to get people to stay focused, and teams where I could chase people individually, but the aggregate amount of team members time I've needed to spend to stay up to date have tended to stay relatively similar.

Key thing being, if your standup is a large proportion of the time you spend closing those feedback loops, it's likely your standups are much to long or your one on one follow-up may be on the low side. But there are also all kinds of exceptions - a team of very senior people who know each other can often do with less, for example.

Lest you think I like meetings, one of the most effective "meeting killers" I put in place at a past team was a weekly report where I got HR to give me average salary numbers across the different job functions and added up the salary cost per work item, with meetings broken out.

The number of meetings plummeted when people saw the opportunity cost in dollars as a proportion of salaries to put a dozen engineers in a room for an hour. I absolutely loathe pointless meetings. But it's important to be aware of what function a given meeting actually serves before deciding whether or not it's pointless.

Re: World’s largest four-day work week trial finds few are going back

#318
post #118

When was a mathematician, I worked as hard as I could until I was mentally exhausted. I actually calculated how much I worked per week over a period of two years. On actual "hard thinking", like working through logic, I spent about 7 hours. There was another 7 hours writing and clarifying topics, and another 6 hours or so on classes, seminars (sort of like meetings, but productive). That gives a total of 20 hours per…

> My conclusions after observing a ton of people in technical and nontechnical jobs is that beyond working 20-25 hours a week, having people do more is useless... I'm not so sure about this. I was working in a remote "full-stack" (but really 90% front-end role) for 14 months from the start of January 2021 to the end of February 2022. I tracked my hours religiously the entire time I was employed there (not required, b…

I find it depends heavily onto the task. Some let's say "organizational" work (moving stuff around, adding new machines to cluster etcetera) that just requires to be done but not "hard"? Can do for hours, will get a bit slower just coz of boredom. So the first 4 hours are still more effective than next 4 hours but not as much so, especially when I take break in the middle (bless WFH)

Programming or designing something complex to program ? Way shorter. So I usually mix and match

Re: World’s largest four-day work week trial finds few are going back

#319
post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where these discussions trip up is different kinds of programming tasks vary in how mentality draining they are. Some days I can spend 10 long hours working through straightforward problems and come home energized. Other days I mentally check out after spending 3-4 hours beating my head against a really difficult problem then go home and have little desire to do anything but zone out and recover.

Funnily enough, I find myself the exact opposite. Give me a really hard engaging problem and I can work 16 hours and barely realize any time has passed, but spending even 1-2 hours on something rote saps my energy for the entire day. My tolerant is even lower for the particularly challenging combination of tasks that are both uninteresting but also tedious.

I was like that, now it kinda only works for something I'm really passionate about

Re: World’s largest four-day work week trial finds few are going back

#320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the Austrian tax system you are not taxed in one bracket. The first 15k are free next 5k at 15%, next 10k at 25% and so on. So your average tax rate will always be lower than your marginal rate, thus removing 20% gross will never remove 20% net. Actual values depend on your income of course.

In the UK we have the tax free allowances, but we start to lose them as we earn more. For instance, around £100k in earnings they start to tax your personal allowance so you are effectively taxed at 60%. You then move into 45% tax and then start to lose pension allowances at £250k. First world problems, but these are all cliffs where it makes sense to keep your income down. Losing 20% off the top line will reduce you…

That is horrible. Basically repeating the mistakes the government makes with people on benefits in the tax code. I don't understand how you can design any financial incentive systems with discontinuities such that you actually earn less by working more. That is a totally unforced error. I agree that people on 100k a year maybe don't need some kind of allowance but then just add another bracket at 85k that erodes it away instead of pretending that the people at 99k still really depend on it.
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