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“Open source” seeds loosen Big Ag’s grip on farmers

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Re: “Open source” seeds loosen Big Ag’s grip on farmers

#311

Post by cik2e »

mschuster91 wrote: post #200
epistasis wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the most obvious, concentration of market power. The solution to concentrated market power is not to abandon the productivity gains, but to use law and regulate to de-concentrate market power. We could instead ban specialization and the productivity it brings, but that's dealing with the wrong thing. > concentration of genomics Again, solved not by banning specialization, but rather through diversification of the m…

> This has nothing to do with advancing knowledge and specialization, and in fact reducing pesticide usage is only going to be enabled through greater advancement of our ag tech. Or by restructuring how land is used. When you have miles upon miles of corn fields, it's a fucking buffet for corn pests. In contrast, land that has a great variety of usages - corn, wheat, grass for making hay, marijuana, rice, potatoes, b…

>> Restaurants can be forced to limit portion sizes (which might also have side effects to improve public health, aka obesity epidemic).

Pricing out poor fat people from restaurants will not solve the obesity epidemic. It will drive them to Doritos.

Re: “Open source” seeds loosen Big Ag’s grip on farmers

#312

Post by pfdietz »

jiminymcmoogley wrote: post #289
fragmede wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's special about seeds is they reproduce with a bit of water, soil, and sunlight. My laptop does not and in fact will be very sad if I water it. Thus no matter how many patents Intel has on the things inside my laptop, there's a limit on how much I can ultimately do with the physical device.

Wouldn't this actually be an argument in favor of seed patents? I've been more or less a complete IP abolitionist for so long now that thinking in IP maxi terms is basically a foreign language to me now, but wouldn't they make the argument that it's necessary to allow protections where the good is A. hard to develop initially and B. easy to reproduce?

Exactly. GMO seeds are a best case for patent protection, in the same league as new drugs.

Re: “Open source” seeds loosen Big Ag’s grip on farmers

#313

Post by pfdietz »

bob29 wrote: post #293
tptacek wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing you can do with water, soil, and sunlight is going to produce RoundUp --- or a RoundUp-Ready seed. It's perfectly reasonable to oppose all patents. Just don't pretend the wind, sun, and dirt somehow invalidate seed patents. There's no distinction to draw.

People have been sued for growing patented potatoes, unrelated to round up . . . Ok? U take tuber u put it in ground it grows more tubers u try to sell BOOM illegal son .

So, your objection to patents is that they are enforced when violated?

Re: “Open source” seeds loosen Big Ag’s grip on farmers

#314

Post by pfdietz »

gruez wrote: post #270
UncleEntity wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need a license to produce and sell patented technology. You don’t need a license to use patented technology which you either bought from a third party, was given or has blown onto your land by the wind.

This thread is going in circles. As mentioned a few comments ago, it's clearly not the case that the technology "blown onto your land by the wind". The farmer was intentionally engaging in artificial selection to get plants with roundup ready traits. I can be sympathetic to the claim that a patented program magically appeared on your computer because of random bit-flips, but I can't be sympathetic if you deliberately…

And note that this farmer would not have successfully obtained glyphosate resistant plants just by spraying his field, in the absence of the contamination. If it were that easy, GMOs wouldn't have been necessary in the first place.

Re: “Open source” seeds loosen Big Ag’s grip on farmers

#315

Post by supportlocal4h »

tharkun__ wrote: post #255
Scoundreller wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> returned from ag use for ecological restoration. We don’t really do that. If anything, the opposite now that the land yields more value. Largely we just use the excess to feed animals (ie: 90% energy loss) or ethanol/biodiesel (ie: using land as a 2-3% efficient solar panel, along with lots of inputs). Something like 75% of US corn goes into the above 2.

I'd totally agree w/ this from the "grow corn and then feed cows with it" standpoint. This is doubly bad if you're displacing natural grasslands and grassland grazing with this. I.e. plant corn on your previous grasslands and cram the cows into some barn. This came through HN just recently. Another way to do the same though is to go back to what the big buffalo herds were naturally doing. I.e. let your cows actually…

Then you have a dispute about who owns the 10000s of acres and who to pay for the grazing rights. And who is responsible for maintaining all that range? And can somebody be tried twice for a mistake in their management of open range? Then people with and without badges show up with guns.

Ok, that hardly ever happens.

Re: “Open source” seeds loosen Big Ag’s grip on farmers

#316

Post by rhaway84773 »

breput wrote: post #302
brnt wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Farmers are not smart. They operate outdoor biofactoriea accordong to protocols defined by people far away and using all manner of materials focussed on maintaoning the factory, not the farming. Ask any agronomist. There's even that Netflix documentary. Industrial farmers understand the economics of their operation, but very little about its biology. They know as much about that as Amazon warehouse workers know about…

EVEN a Netflix documentary about it? Wow. You told us, albeit with a few spelling and grammatical mistakes. If you believe farmers are beholden to whoever you think they serve, you should be twice as suspicious of agronomists who have no literal and figurative skin in the game.

I don’t think brnt’s comment contradicts yours.

They agree that farmers understand financials. But they also restates what you said. Farmers don’t understand the actual biology of farming. They are dependent on the company provided experts for that.

The only real difference between you and the other commenter is your definition of the word “smart”. You both agree on the facts.

Also, “Even a Netflix documentary” is a horrible comeback when the original comment’s “evidence” is as a YouTube video.

Re: “Open source” seeds loosen Big Ag’s grip on farmers

#317

Post by permo-w »

tptacek wrote: post #205
permo-w wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

an argument designed to appeal to a court is not necessarily moral or true, and this is generally accepted as normal practice

It just has nothing to do with what we're talking about. The notion that Monsanto is suing farmers for seeds just blowing onto their fields false, and thus can't have anything to do with whether seeds should be patentable.

slow down and understand my words. it's perfectly fine and moral to take advantage of the fact that someone else's seeds have blown onto your land, but that's not an argument you can sell to a court. so publicly making a separate legally stronger argument is normal and reasonable behaviour that doesn't lessen them whatsoever

Re: “Open source” seeds loosen Big Ag’s grip on farmers

#318

Post by jabl »

omeid2 wrote: post #301
Scoundreller wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kinda what Iceland does. Multiple sheep per person. They tag 'em, let 'em roam free and collect them later in the year. https://www.cntraveler.com/story/iceland-welcomes-tourists-t... Same with many random islands explorers came across: they'd leave some livestock so when they came back later they'd have some dense and fresh food ready to harvest. Didn't work so well in Australia. And probably any of the islands most…

Australia is one of the largest meat exporters.

The plague of sheep, camels, cows, rabbits, cane toads and whatnot isn't such a good deal for the indigenous flora and fauna.

Re: “Open source” seeds loosen Big Ag’s grip on farmers

#319

Post by prbs23 »

davexunit wrote: post #73

My favorite seed seller, Fedco, has an OSSI section: https://fedcoseeds.com/seeds/list-ossi I have tried and liked Dazzling Blue Kale and Gildenstern Lettuce. I'm trying out some other OSSI lettuce varieties this year, of which there are many.

If you are interested in more OSSI varieties like those, check out Wild Garden Seed: https://www.wildgardenseed.com

The owner, the Frank Morton who was mentioned in article, is the original breeder of both Gildenstern and Dazzling Blue (and they probably grew the seed being sold by Fedco). All the varieties he bread (of which there are many) are released as OSSI varieties, plus they sell other OSSI varieties as well.

Re: “Open source” seeds loosen Big Ag’s grip on farmers

#320

Post by cognaitiv »

nine_k wrote: post #290
bombolo wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason why iceland can't have trees: sheep owners

Iceland actually has some trees. But in that climate they don't grow very tall. Also, much of Iceland is a desert of lava, glass, and black sand; some other parts are covered with ice. Not many plants can survive in such a landscape, and those which do are usually not trees.

Deforestation in Iceland predates industrialization.

“Deforestation is a major issue that is highly prevalent throughout the world. The country of Iceland has been hit especially hard by this catastrophe. A nation that once had forests covering 40 percent of its countryside began to lose its tree cover, when the Vikings arrived in the 9th century. By the early 20th century, however, this tree cover was reduced to just 0.5 percent. To this day, the government of Iceland is working towards reviving the lost forests and restoring the land, in order to work towards a more sustainable future. This problem relates to the course of Sustainability for the Common Good because it covers the environmental issue of deforestation as well as the solutions that are being put into play to make the land more sustainable”

https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/a4e20c53ee77427cb587cb7...

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