Stop developing this technology • Hacker News Board

Re: Stop developing this technology

#311

Post by JohnFen » Thu, Feb 02, 2023, 4:57 PM UTC

jolmg wrote: post #309

JohnFen wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My position is that development is not unethical. I think this is where we disagree at heart. I don't think that development is an ethically neutral act, any more than any other human activity is ethically neutral.

I see this as part of the expansion of knowledge. People conduct research to get a better understanding of the universe. Tech development is about our understanding of what we can do and how. People conducting studies and research can be unethical in the process, same as tech development, but I can't think of knowledge that would be unethical to expand in if the process is ethical. What understanding of the universe…

I draw a distinction that you don't here. Development is not about the expansion of knowledge, it's about producing things. Science is about the expansion of knowledge.

As a society, we very often conflate the two, but they're really very different things.

Re: Stop developing this technology

#312

Post by rbanffy » Thu, Feb 02, 2023, 4:58 PM UTC

CyborgCabbage wrote: post #159

rbanffy wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is not neutral in the face of human psychology. It's worth noting that nuclear weapons seem to have prevented more deaths than they caused. The MAD doctrine has prevented direct confrontation between the superpowers and limited their military conflicts to proxy wars. And this is a technology that has almost no application beyond vaporizing cities almost instantaneously.

This is a fair point, but we have no way of knowing how close we came or will come to a nuclear apocalypse, so the risk posed by nuclear technology is difficult to evaluate.

The same as what would have happened have we not invented them.

We don't have reliable ways to project predict the future, or to predict the present based on past conditions.

Re: Stop developing this technology

#313

Post by rbanffy » Thu, Feb 02, 2023, 5:00 PM UTC

wincy wrote: post #206

rbanffy wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is not neutral in the face of human psychology. It's worth noting that nuclear weapons seem to have prevented more deaths than they caused. The MAD doctrine has prevented direct confrontation between the superpowers and limited their military conflicts to proxy wars. And this is a technology that has almost no application beyond vaporizing cities almost instantaneously.

If it happens even once those “lives saved” gains will be wiped away. If the stock market is rising for a hundred years then literally goes to zero, you’ve still lost the long game, buying short term gains at the expense of the long term. If our children all die in a nuclear holocaust, it doesn’t really matter how many lives we saved, does it?

The acronym MAD is not a coincidence.

Re: Stop developing this technology

#314

Post by rbanffy » Thu, Feb 02, 2023, 5:02 PM UTC

blowski wrote: post #216

Jcowell wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but in the end it’s all about choice . It’s not some creation of chaotic coincidences and circumstances. It’s not some accidental discovery. It’s an active choice by whoever decides to make it for whoever purpose. The argument isn’t matter of should it be made, but that the only reason it’s being made is because of people actual choices to do so. It’s not randomly spawning Into existence of its own free will.

An extreme version of this might be: > I saw Bob about to stab Alice, so I beat Bob to it and shot her in the head. I did nothing wrong since the outcome would have been the same regardless of my actions.

On the bright side, you probably saved Bob's life.

Re: Stop developing this technology

#315

Post by mihaic » Thu, Feb 02, 2023, 5:02 PM UTC

IdiocyInAction wrote: post #280

mihaic wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree, I've come to believe that social ethics is something that needs to be indoctrinated from an early age, otherwise it can't naturally be developed in many people.

A lot of nasty ideologues that caused massive suffering also believed that

Sure, because it's such a powerful technique for shaping society. Are you saying we should stop using it because it can be abused for evil? :)

Re: Stop developing this technology

#316

Post by winrid » Thu, Feb 02, 2023, 5:04 PM UTC

wnkrshm wrote: post #48

winrid wrote: post #22

On a side note, is this really all in Python? I imagine it's offloading some stuff to the GPU right? Maybe the GPU instructions are also stored in python??

Among others it's using pytorch and numpy, two python packages written in compiled languages, torch can use the GPU.

Ah, thanks!

Re: Stop developing this technology

#317

Post by rbanffy » Thu, Feb 02, 2023, 5:07 PM UTC

blowski wrote: post #163

rbanffy wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there also many good counter-arguments. Someone will develop it, and someone will use it for nefarious purposes - as one terrorist organization spokesperson once said, "We only need to get lucky once. You need to get lucky every time". If it is developed like this, in the open, at least we have a better chance to understand its capabilities and limitations, and to be better equipped to build countermeasures.

This is exactly the Prisoner's Dilemma, and also shows up in arguments why we need to build insane numbers of nuclear weapons. The logic rests on a faulty assumption that there is a binary choice - either you build it this way, or somebody else builds it this way. It doesn't consider any other possible paths that could lead to better outcomes.

There is an economic incentive to build it this way - for all the legal, and illegal applications it may be used. Movies can make stunts look more like the actors they portray more easily (this has existed for decades now), you can pay Tom Cruise to use his likeness on a publicity campaign without having to pay for his time. You can change your face, or your body, so you are not recognized.

It's a virtual certainty that a technology that can have a commercial application will be developed. I can't imagine a plausible path departing from this present where it isn't.

Re: Stop developing this technology

#318

Post by bondarchuk » Thu, Feb 02, 2023, 5:07 PM UTC

noAnswer wrote: post #197

bondarchuk wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's stupid, if he does it there is MORE rape.

So not only will someone else do it, if you join, there will be even more harm. So don't do it!

Which is a different situation than the one with developing some technology. If someone develops faceswap, and then someone else develops it too, we won't have twice the amount of faceswap-badness.

edit: which is not to say that I think "if I don't do it, someone else will" is a good argument for doing something you disagree with..

Re: Stop developing this technology

#319

Post by rbanffy » Thu, Feb 02, 2023, 5:07 PM UTC

makapuf wrote: post #153

type0 wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is much more useful for privacy concious people not wanting to give Zoom more data for their face detection database. All in all it's good for humanity when technology can counteract other evil tech that will spy on you.

you could use avatars / 3D models (possibly a few realistic ones) for those, no need for deepfake technology from a single photo.

True, but that'd be obvious. For a lot of use cases the point would be to do it without being detected.

Re: Stop developing this technology

#320

Post by jolmg » Thu, Feb 02, 2023, 5:13 PM UTC

JohnFen wrote: post #311

jolmg wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see this as part of the expansion of knowledge. People conduct research to get a better understanding of the universe. Tech development is about our understanding of what we can do and how. People conducting studies and research can be unethical in the process, same as tech development, but I can't think of knowledge that would be unethical to expand in if the process is ethical. What understanding of the universe…

I draw a distinction that you don't here. Development is not about the expansion of knowledge, it's about producing things. Science is about the expansion of knowledge. As a society, we very often conflate the two, but they're really very different things.

They're very intertwined. A paperclip factory produces things; they don't do tech development (shouldn't do much at least). Tech development is about pushing the edge. Science, obtaining more knowledge about the universe we have to work with, helps, but it's also about finding new applications for what we've already known.

Tech development doesn't necessitate the production of things, even intangible ones. Technology development in the form of new optimization techniques in existing software for e.g. rendering 3d models or searching data faster or whatever is not producing things, but it's still tech development.