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The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

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Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#311

Post by bigcloud1299 »

brianglick wrote: post #28
d_watt wrote: post #19

Anecdotally last winter, had a Model Y up in maine for a trip home. I arrived at a backwoods house with ~60 miles left. It was around 10 farenheit the next day when I hooked up a 110 volt line to the car. Over the next 30 minutes the mileage dropped to 55 as it took more energy to heat the battery than the line could deliver. I unhooked it and planned to drive 20 miles to the nearest charger, but after 1 mile of trav…

You wouldn't really need a heated garage (at home, anyway) if you had a 220 volt charger. That should be able to overcome any charging challenges in extreme cold, anyway. Relatively easy to get that into your garage. Also - if you arrive at your friend's place in the winter and park overnight, you won't lose a ton overnight if the car's just parked there.

I guarantee that you don’t own a all Electric V. I own 2018 model S and I concur with the Op of this thread that’s the case. Charging is a huge pain in cold weather. I have insulated my garage doors and am able to keep the temp at around 45 in cold winters ( I am in Redmond).

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#312

Post by linsomniac »

josephcsible wrote: post #194
linsomniac wrote: post #9

Range impact of cold weather does seem to be a real thing, I can't speak personally because I own a Tesla which has some of the lowest impact. Another thing to keep in mind is: Charging speeds of cold temps. While the Tesla seems to do great at range, charging at cold temps is not great. When it's below freezing, home charging can be tough to impossible. A few days ago (when it was merely "cold", before the huge cold…

> When it's below freezing, home charging can be tough to impossible. Don't mix up "home charging" with "level 1 charging". A lot of EV owners will get a NEMA 14-50 receptacle to level 2 charge, and then there's no problem at all charging while below freezing.

To clarify, I'm talking NEMA 14-50, 240V@50A breaker, 40A charger) and will regularly get low charging rates if it's very cold.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#313

Post by [deleted] »

cwalv wrote: post #116
jws wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spoken by someone who's never had their diesel fuel begin gelling in the fuel line at night on a frigid, remote highway and trying to figure out if you can make it to somewhere with heat before you stop completely. Then finding out they only have gasoline, so you try to figure out how much gas you can add to the diesel tank to keep it from gelling but still run adequately to move you along. Sometimes we forget that w…

> But you know what I don't do? Freeze my ass off standing in a gas station in subzero temperatures and howling winds! Not missing that at all. Right! And I suspect by 2035, not having a 220v outlet in the garage will be like not having a microwave in your kitchen in the mid 90's.

[deleted]

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#314

Post by linsomniac »

joshuanapoli wrote: post #174
linsomniac wrote: post #9

Range impact of cold weather does seem to be a real thing, I can't speak personally because I own a Tesla which has some of the lowest impact. Another thing to keep in mind is: Charging speeds of cold temps. While the Tesla seems to do great at range, charging at cold temps is not great. When it's below freezing, home charging can be tough to impossible. A few days ago (when it was merely "cold", before the huge cold…

It’s strange that people’s experiences are so varied with EVs in cold weather. Here it’s 14F right now and my Model Y is charging at 30 mph (versus 32 mph in warm weather). Driving 120 miles this morning at 11F used maybe 10% more energy than normal. The doors, though, we’re quite sticky and frustrating to open.

How long did the battery sit in 14F after driving 120 miles? If I charge right after a 120 mile trip, that'd be fine. Also, are you saying the car is in 14F, or it is 14F outside and your car is in the garage? My car is outside (I use my garage as a shop).

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#315

Post by swagasaurus-rex »

xyst wrote: post #207

Yet another reason why EVs won’t save us from the inefficiencies of car centric transportation. Americans, can we stop this failed experiment and let’s (re)build our cities with public transportation and alternative forms of transportation (ie, biking, walking, micro-mobility). Return the spaces occupied by parking lots, parking garages and use that space to house people. End these implied subsidies on “car housing”.…

I have a bold proposal for solving the streets in city crisis:

Between buildings, build an elevated walkway above the roads. With ventilation these walkways could cover a large part if not all of the area above roads. Promote social spaces, commerce areas, and open areas between buildings without sacrificing cars. Just build above them.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#316

Post by xyzelement »

Beltalowda wrote: post #309
xyzelement wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I am less stressed about this than you are. I remember someone ranting at me in the 90s about peak oil and how our kids will live in the stone ages because we'll run out (their thesis of course was that ppl shouldn't have kids) Science evolves as does technology, and inevitably both factors will change over the coming decades. To base your life around the worst case predictions of models (where the disaster m…

> Science evolves as does technology, and inevitably both factors will change over the coming decades. To base your life around the worst case predictions of models (where the disaster moment keeps pushing back as time progresses) is not logical. Operating on the basis of the most extremist "worst case" scenarios that are very unlikely (like your "peak oil" example) probably doesn't make too much sense, but it's prob…

I am in favor of a risk-based approach as you're describing. Some certain sacrifice today is worth some unclear reduction in an uncertain future event. The question is - how much?

If you wanted to be extreme in CO2 reduction, I guess your best bet is to kill every living human and animal on the planet (to be clear, not advocating this!) Clearly that's "too high" a price to pay.

On the other hand, you can be very practical and look for CO2 reduction in ways that don't harm people's current lives. Increasing vehicle mileage is an example of this - mileage has doubled and emissions per vehicles halved since 1975.[1] In fact, I suspect this is going to get even better very quickly. My Highlander Hybrid, which is a large vehicle, gets roughly 50% more MPG than in this chart.

So we can say we're already doing a lot (and that's just one thing.) The idea that somehow the line between acceptable and unacceptable just happens to be right between suburban and city living feels a little too convenient for me.

[1] https://www.epa.gov/automotive-trends/highlights-automotive-...

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#317

Post by jhoechtl »

GalenErso wrote: post #32
brianglick wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You wouldn't really need a heated garage (at home, anyway) if you had a 220 volt charger. That should be able to overcome any charging challenges in extreme cold, anyway. Relatively easy to get that into your garage. Also - if you arrive at your friend's place in the winter and park overnight, you won't lose a ton overnight if the car's just parked there.

Meanwhile, with an ICE car, you don't need to worry about having a garage, nevermind a heated one; the right charger, warming a pack, losing fuel overnight, or taking three hours to fully charge. I can pull up to any gas station and fill my tank in 2 minutes. And my gas isn't magically evaporating if it's a little chilly. The 30 different requirements for EVs to work in cold weather are too complex and prohibitively…

I really hope the way EV infrastructure is set up in the US wil not take over to Europe.

I really hope that alternative energy storage like hydrogen make the race.

Present battery technology for cod winter Europe is not practical.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#318

Post by biggc »

EdwardDiego wrote: post #252
devb wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> not having a 220v outlet in the garage will be like not having a microwave What about the millions of people who live in apartments and rowhouses?

Well, if they're smart, they've built their cities in such a way that cars are only something you hire for your vacation, rest of the time, a bike and/or a train pass is sufficient.

Ah, the Stack Overflow classic “this is a wrong problem to have”

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#319

Post by fwungy »

EVs are a wonderful technology for a specific set of use cases, but there are many for which it is not economically or technically efficient.

You cannot beat the energy density of hydrocarbon fuels. Thermodynamic efficiency of an ICE actually increases in cold weather because you can reuse the engine heat for the passengers. In an EV you have to channel your motive fuel into electric heaters which are far less efficient than the drive motors themselves.

The current policy movements towards EV only are suicidal. We are nowhere near ready to support it. It's also discriminatory because EVs cost much more than ICEs and do not have the lifespan of ICEs. Economically disadvantaged peoples of color often depend on older used vehicles.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#320

Post by ReactiveJelly »

GalenErso wrote: post #32
brianglick wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You wouldn't really need a heated garage (at home, anyway) if you had a 220 volt charger. That should be able to overcome any charging challenges in extreme cold, anyway. Relatively easy to get that into your garage. Also - if you arrive at your friend's place in the winter and park overnight, you won't lose a ton overnight if the car's just parked there.

Meanwhile, with an ICE car, you don't need to worry about having a garage, nevermind a heated one; the right charger, warming a pack, losing fuel overnight, or taking three hours to fully charge. I can pull up to any gas station and fill my tank in 2 minutes. And my gas isn't magically evaporating if it's a little chilly. The 30 different requirements for EVs to work in cold weather are too complex and prohibitively…

Plug-in hybrids are strangely missing from online discussions. Are they too heavy or something?

Cause it seems perfect to me. Run electric day-to-day when the weather affords. Run gas for long trips or bad conditions.

No need for a giant 300 mile battery made with minerals from a developing country. Nor a huge ICE, since you can shrink it to a very narrow power band and rely on the batteries for peak power like take-off.

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