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It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

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311–320 of 704 posts

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#311
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a parent I have no idea what you are trying to say with this idea of pushing "heteronormativity" - I don't and don't know any parents that push anything sexual let alone encouraging kids to explore sexuality .. they are kids and will be kids until they mature and begin to feel the urge to explore. This normalising of sexualising of children is abhorrent. Edit: the voting on this comment is crazy.. the number of HN…

Terms like “heteronormativity” and “cisgender” are just ways they attempt to marginalize normal people and their normal sexual development. These people who use these terms are objectively and statistically outliers in society. And since they can’t convince anyone to accept their abnormality, they instead try to change language to remove the idea of there being a standard/normal baseline. They think that because you’…

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Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This narrative of predatory trans people does not bare out... I didn't say predatory trans people. I said predatory men. Have you met men? Some men will put on a dress, call themselves trans, and fondle themselves in a women's locker room. Again, pretending this is about trans people is disingenuous. This is about (some) men. And, again, whether you genuinely dismiss the concern because you genuinely disbelieve tha…

I have heard some men say things about women when they weren't around that I find appalling; I've had to work on eliminating misogyny from my own thinking, and it is a work in progress; I'm well aware of men and the toxicity that often goes along with them. The narrative you have presented is frequently weaponized, specifically by the adherents to the ideology of Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminism, to argue that tra…

> The narrative you have presented is frequently weaponized...

Indeed. This is both true, and a non-sequitur. Bad-faith arguers exist. Let us acknowledge the fact that some people will reprehensibly refer to every trans woman as a "man in a dress". Let's assume the best about each other.

If you're trying to say that everyone is a TERF who points out that some men (again, not trans women) will take advantage, or that only bad people point this out, then you're not addressing the concern, but dismissing it. Addressing and empathizing with the actual concern will get trans people into their preferred bathrooms and keep bad men out.

Anyway, you and I won't litigate this here, so if you have more to add, know that I'll read whatever you have to say but might not reply. Be well.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Terms like “heteronormativity” and “cisgender” are just ways they attempt to marginalize normal people and their normal sexual development. These people who use these terms are objectively and statistically outliers in society. And since they can’t convince anyone to accept their abnormality, they instead try to change language to remove the idea of there being a standard/normal baseline. They think that because you’…

Interestingly, newspeak was about removing words from language so that certain ideas couldn't be expressed. It was explicitly not about adding words to the language, and certainly not about adding words to convey additional nuance and precision where there was previously none. It seems to me like you're actually arguing to try and remove words that people have introduced to the language, and to erase the nuances they…

I know it’s from 1984, but it’s considered a word itself as far as I can tell. I was using it as “Deliberately ambiguous and contradictory language used to mislead and manipulate the public.” Heterosexuality is the norm, it is the default. Heteronormativity is some nonsense phrase that is used in place of “normal” to try and draw a false equivalency between normal and abnormal. It is intended to muddy the waters and mislead like most contemporary “woke” language.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#314
post #164
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Satanic panic is a moral panic consisting of over 12,000 unsubstantiated cases of Satanic ritual abuse (SRA, sometimes known as ritual abuse, ritualistic abuse, organized abuse, or sadistic ritual abuse) starting in the United States in the 1980s, spreading throughout many parts of the world by the late 1990s, and persisting today. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_panic

Well, there were actual cases of it, but it was exaggerated in the media. Just as the media makes it out like the next stop by a cop could end up in an execution if you’re not the same ethnicity as the cop. It’s still rather rare, or at least not happening at the rate the media portrays it.

Exaggeration of the actual happens for cause and effect alike. It is often hard to tell which side exaggeration favors until time passes.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’ve nicely explained why trans-exclusionary radical feminists (TERFs) exist. Absolute belief that gender is purely a social construct (a core tenet of second-wave feminism) is strictly incompatible with gender dysphoria existing at all, since gender dysphoria necessarily means that our brains are inherently wired to be male or female. The reality is more nuanced—while certain gender roles are purely social constru…

> Absolute belief that gender is purely a social construct (a core tenet of second-wave feminism) is strictly incompatible with gender dysphoria existing at all, since gender dysphoria necessarily means that our brains are inherently wired to be male or female. That's not true. It would just indicate that the gender dysphoria is socially caused (perhaps by the imposition of strong gender norms) rather than being an u…

>It would just indicate that the gender dysphoria is socially caused (perhaps by the imposition of strong gender norms) rather than being an unavoidable part of someone's nature.

It seems unlikely to me that social norms alone could cause gender dysphoric people to believe so strongly that their gender identity mismatches their biological sex (i.e. physical body) that they are willing to undergo dramatic, irreversible medical procedures like gender reassignment surgery and other transitioning procedures to rectify the mismatch.

There are plenty of people who strongly defy gender norms yet still strongly identify their gender as being concordant with their biological sex. Gender dysphoria goes far beyond mere nonconformity to gender norms; many trans people explicitly say that they feel like they were born into the wrong body.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disclaimer: I am transgender and i have done actual research on transgenderism a couple years back. I have seen this firsthand on some acquaintances. Social media has a massive influence on people and there are some persons specifically that have a weaker sense of identity (usually associated with poor development or some mental disorder like schizophrenia, STPD, or BPD), and those persons can be influenced to the po…

> OTOH, i am unsure what do you mean by a statistical over-representation of GD. This is quite clear to me and I do not think gender dysphoria - which is a DSM-5 diagnosis [1] - is the correct term to use. Compared to previous years or decades (or centuries) there is a markedly higher percentage of children/young adults who "self-identify as 'trans'", often clustered and in waves. This did not use to be so but that d…

> Compared to previous years or decades (or centuries) there is a markedly higher percentage of children/young adults who "self-identify as 'trans'", often clustered and in waves.

I don't see how you could usefully extrapolate a "real" baseline rate based on what prior generations did. Atypical sexual/gender identities have been taboo for almost the entirety of human civilization, and only as these taboos are now being lifted are people able to express these traits without fear of horrific repercussions.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Absolute belief that gender is purely a social construct (a core tenet of second-wave feminism) is strictly incompatible with gender dysphoria existing at all, since gender dysphoria necessarily means that our brains are inherently wired to be male or female. That's not true. It would just indicate that the gender dysphoria is socially caused (perhaps by the imposition of strong gender norms) rather than being an u…

>It would just indicate that the gender dysphoria is socially caused (perhaps by the imposition of strong gender norms) rather than being an unavoidable part of someone's nature. It seems unlikely to me that social norms alone could cause gender dysphoric people to believe so strongly that their gender identity mismatches their biological sex (i.e. physical body) that they are willing to undergo dramatic, irreversibl…

People will do practically anything in order to be socially accepted. The followers of the ancient goddess Cybele famously underwent ritual gender transition, as related most effectively in Catullus 63.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interestingly, newspeak was about removing words from language so that certain ideas couldn't be expressed. It was explicitly not about adding words to the language, and certainly not about adding words to convey additional nuance and precision where there was previously none. It seems to me like you're actually arguing to try and remove words that people have introduced to the language, and to erase the nuances they…

I know it’s from 1984, but it’s considered a word itself as far as I can tell. I was using it as “Deliberately ambiguous and contradictory language used to mislead and manipulate the public.” Heterosexuality is the norm, it is the default. Heteronormativity is some nonsense phrase that is used in place of “normal” to try and draw a false equivalency between normal and abnormal. It is intended to muddy the waters and…

There's nothing ambiguous or misleading, what you're actually objecting to is the concrete and specific use of language to describe ideas you don't like and which you don't want to see proliferate. You aren't objecting to people being mislead, you're objecting to people understanding. Do give 1984 a read, I think you'll find the irony that you are appropriating a term used in that book in order to invert it's meaning and to take the very actions that the book is criticizing quite amusing, and then we can be in on the joke together.

Heterosexuality doesn't have to be the default, and indeed, that era is ending. The evidence for it is right here; you feel compelled to go to bat for the notion, not something you'd need to do if it really were mystically natural and inextricably true. Heterosexuality is promulgated as a default because it is key to a power structure called the patriarchy. The patriarchy works by assigning certain gender roles to men and women; these roles allow men to subjugate women, and also allow men to be subjugated by other men. The patriarchy's strength lies in the rigidity of those gender roles, and as the gender roles are loosened the patriarchy gets weaker. Lots of power within our society is expressed through patriarchy, for instance, the idea that men express their agency through violence instead of through emotion and that they should readily throw their lives away in service of a cause is useful for recruiting men as soldiers and police, and soldiers and police are useful in upholding many other power structures (like state power or the power of the rich). So over the last few millenia, many different power structures have come to rely on the existence of patriarchy, and it's been woven into our mythology and the fabric of our society. The fluidity of gender roles is a direct challenge to patriarchy, and people with nonconforming identities have been forced into the closet through violence and social reprisal.

This was a natural series of events in the sense that all of history took place in the context of the natural world, sure. But cancer is natural, we don't have to accept it. In the same way, I reject your heteronormativity. I think it sucks. I don't think people are "naturally" any particular gender, it's a role we learn to play as we're socialized. That doesn't make it bad, there's nothing wrong with being a man or a woman, there's nothing wrong with embracing very traditional views of what that means if that's what makes you happy. I live my life as a pretty traditional man. But that isn't all there is to life, and that's not all it should mean to be human.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#319
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Recently read the story of a detransitioner and the statistic that about a third falls of the radar (and due missing their hormones, almost certainly are unhappy about the treatment). Social media are implicated in the spread of these ideas (all ideas), and the detransitioner pleaded for better info from professionals and an end to doctor neutrality for underage trans people. Changed my mind a bit.

Less than 1%. That's the number of people who detransition simply because they didn't feel it was the right thing for them. Of the less than 2% of detransitioners overall, the vast majority names reasons like social pressure, transitioning being too difficult, etc. Dunno what numbers you are talking about, but the ones I know certainly underline gender dysphoria being a very real thing and not some sort of "social co…

> Less than 1%. That's the number of people who detransition simply because they didn't feel it was the right thing for them.

About 1% who do so through the hospital procrdures. About a third just stops showing up for followups and hormones. According to the detransitioner, who falls into that category, and has found a small community of similar people, this is what's wrong with the statistic: it's extremely important to not exclude the group that falls of the radar. Since they're not getting hormones anymore, the safest assumption is that they are stopping their transition (because they are) or detransitioning.

A third is a very high amount.

This is the NL btw.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Absolute belief that gender is purely a social construct (a core tenet of second-wave feminism) is strictly incompatible with gender dysphoria existing at all, since gender dysphoria necessarily means that our brains are inherently wired to be male or female. That's not true. It would just indicate that the gender dysphoria is socially caused (perhaps by the imposition of strong gender norms) rather than being an u…

>It would just indicate that the gender dysphoria is socially caused (perhaps by the imposition of strong gender norms) rather than being an unavoidable part of someone's nature. It seems unlikely to me that social norms alone could cause gender dysphoric people to believe so strongly that their gender identity mismatches their biological sex (i.e. physical body) that they are willing to undergo dramatic, irreversibl…

> It seems unlikely to me that social norms alone could cause gender dysphoric people to believe so strongly that their gender identity mismatches their biological sex

I think it's quite likely.

As an analogy, it seems relatively common for people to become so convinced that they are so unattractive that they undergo highly invasive cosmetic surgery. It's also very much the case that there are social groups where this is normalised (and many people in those social groups will choose to have this surgery) and social groups where it is not (and people in those groups are unlikely to opt for cosmetic surgery).

The difference seems to be that the people in one social group are telling each other that the appropriate solution to feeling unattractive means that one is unattractive and that surgery to change one's body is an appropriate response to that, whereas in the other social group people might either convince each other that they're attractive as they are, or seek alternative remedies such as changes in clothing, grooming, make-up, etc. Or even therapy, self-esteem coaching or similar.

Similarly, if one is an environment where one is constantly told that men (or women) are or should act/be a certain way, then it is hardly surprising that one might develop the notion that one isn't a man/woman. Such an environment is commonly created by people with traditional notions of gender. But it's reinforced by people suggesting that transitioning might be the solution to not fitting one's gender norms.

Which isn't to say that there aren't people for whom physically transitioning is the right answer (the best solution for them), or that do have an inherent dislike of their body that isn't externally influenced. Likewise, there are people for whom cosmetic surgery is absolutely the right solution (e.g. people with a cleft palate or who have suffered from severe burns). But I question the way it currently seems to being positioned (by some people) as the default response to not fitting in with the norms of one's existing gender, and I also question the idea that it is innate and not socially influenced.

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