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Story: “It would be career limiting..."

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Re: Story: “It would be career limiting..."

#311

Post by P5fRxh5kUvp2th »

Mathnerd314 wrote: post #208
acheron wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that's how the Challenger blew up. Sometimes one side is right, and the other side is wrong, and it doesn't matter if they didn't "communicate and strategize" or "read the room". Obviously this guy is probably writing about a Javascript photo-sharing app or something and it doesn't actually matter, but it's the same principle. The managers who went ahead here would have gone ahead with launching the shuttle for t…

I assume you're referring to Feynmann's remarks in the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogers_Commission_Report . The issue there was that management advertised a safety factor of 1 in 10^5 failures while the engineers thought it was more like 10^2, so numbers were fudged across the board to look reasonable. It really was a communication issue in that there was not accurate information on the riskiest parts of the laun…

Crap like this is why people like those managers are able to get away with what they did.

The challenger blew up because the engineer in the room kept vetoing due to the cold temperatures and he was pressured to stop vetoing, which he did.

Feynmans point about the safety factor was a side-point about the general attitude that allowed them to feel safe to put politics in front of nature.

This is WHY he made his infamous quote.

> For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled

The safety factor is what they were claiming to the public and what they used to convince a teacher it was safe, but has absolutely nothing to do with why the challenger disaster happened.

Re: Story: “It would be career limiting..."

#312

Post by P5fRxh5kUvp2th »

bumby wrote: post #173
duped wrote: post #47

I mean this story is cathartic, but I don't get what the "rabble rousers" expected to happen. You don't go into a meeting like that to present problems, but to present solutions. And a 12 month delay on a $60 million contract isn't a solution, it's another problem for the sales/client success people. And doing it in front of a group of management, no less - that's like firing a shot across the bow, declaring that the…

> You don't go into a meeting like that to present problems, but to present solutions...it doesn't matter if you're right, it matters how you communicate and strategize. I agree, I think the author misread what their role was. It wasn't to "tell it to them straight" as much as it was to solve a problem. Acknowledging the issue is only the first step. I once worked as an energy manager for a large financial institutio…

The project went over 2 years and got cancelled.

While the author moved on and had more success.

Who exactly had the problem?

Re: Story: “It would be career limiting..."

#313

Post by P5fRxh5kUvp2th »

d23 wrote: post #153
duped wrote: post #47

I mean this story is cathartic, but I don't get what the "rabble rousers" expected to happen. You don't go into a meeting like that to present problems, but to present solutions. And a 12 month delay on a $60 million contract isn't a solution, it's another problem for the sales/client success people. And doing it in front of a group of management, no less - that's like firing a shot across the bow, declaring that the…

It's their fucking job to solve the problem, and it's professional malpractice to hear the news, acknowledge it's true, and then sweep it under the rug.

No, it's the little people's responsibility to convince the big people. If they can't do it and the big people suffer as a result, it's still the little people's fault.

Don't you know how power works?

Re: Story: “It would be career limiting..."

#314

Post by spiffytech »

bombcar wrote: post #240
maptime wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree, never ask a user what they want But you can't go wrong with talking to users to understand the problems they are dealing with

I've heard "The Mom Test" is a good book around that, but I've never read it. https://www.amazon.com/Mom-Test-customers-business-everyone/...

Deploy Empathy is another great book on this. Think of it as the 102 course to The Mom Test's 101.

Re: Story: “It would be career limiting..."

#315

Post by cryptonector »

BWStearns wrote: post #309
cryptonector wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't matter whose responsibility coming up with a solution is. If it isn't you but you have one and they don't, then go ahead and step on their toes -- be diplomatic and kind, but go ahead, because a) you'll be saving the firm's bacon, b) you'll be saving the customer's too, c) you'll be making your career. In TFA's case I suspect there really was no solution short of sinking a pile more cash into the project,…

Oh for sure if you have a solution then get it in front of a person who should care about it. But a lot of times they _don't_ care because they know they're going to be promoted or leave the company before the pound of flesh is due. The problem described in TFA is that leadership was happy to ignore a problem rather than do anything. In that kind of culture you don't make your career by raising attention to issues (e…

I assume the leadership structure and culture just didn't lend itself well to handling crises discovered in the trenches. But also, the crisis in TFA seems like a complete failure to properly understand the problem and solution spaces from the get-go, and that can just be very difficult even on good organizations.

Re: Story: “It would be career limiting..."

#316

Post by [deleted] »

P5fRxh5kUvp2th wrote: post #312
bumby wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You don't go into a meeting like that to present problems, but to present solutions...it doesn't matter if you're right, it matters how you communicate and strategize. I agree, I think the author misread what their role was. It wasn't to "tell it to them straight" as much as it was to solve a problem. Acknowledging the issue is only the first step. I once worked as an energy manager for a large financial institutio…

The project went over 2 years and got cancelled. While the author moved on and had more success. Who exactly had the problem?

[deleted]

Re: Story: “It would be career limiting..."

#317

Post by [deleted] »

yarg wrote: post #288
bumby wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m familiar with the story, and actually came across your comment a few days ago. He didn’t feel right about it, but that’s not the same as hard data. They didn’t actually have data on the performance of the material at those temperatures, which is part of the big discussion with his managers. He essentially said, “we don’t know how it will act in those conditions.” Granted, on a safety critical system, having no da…

Perhaps - but one engineer with a niggle is a problem, and a room full of them is absolutely a justificantion for re-evaluation.

[deleted]

Re: Story: “It would be career limiting..."

#318

Post by bumby »

P5fRxh5kUvp2th wrote: post #312
bumby wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You don't go into a meeting like that to present problems, but to present solutions...it doesn't matter if you're right, it matters how you communicate and strategize. I agree, I think the author misread what their role was. It wasn't to "tell it to them straight" as much as it was to solve a problem. Acknowledging the issue is only the first step. I once worked as an energy manager for a large financial institutio…

The project went over 2 years and got cancelled. While the author moved on and had more success. Who exactly had the problem?

By the same logic, canceling the project to focus on others is a success story. If the expectation is that employees are more than cogs in a machine and are expected to solve real problems, both the author and company have problems.

Washing your hands of a problem, especially when you’ve been empowered to create a solution, doesn’t solve anyone’s problems.

Re: Story: “It would be career limiting..."

#319

Post by blitz_skull »

peteradio wrote: post #160
blitz_skull wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your comment actually supports the original comment. If what's at stake is a $60M javascript photo-sharing app, then you gotta decide how much you care to massage egos and play the game. If you're literally putting human lives at risk and you think there's a real chance of death, what a petty thing to say, "Oh well they should've just listened! It's a high-stakes game!" Do be clear, this doesn't shift the res…

What a horrible truth, hate to upvote but you may be right. But why is it engineers who must rise to the political occasion?

I'd argue anyone who wants to be successful, in any arena, must rise to these occasions. I'd also argue they're less political and more empathetic opportunities. Most of us are really just 13 year olds emotionally, running around in 20+ year old bodies. All our insecurities and hurts are still there. The art of being able to address the mistake and the inner human who is just longing for love, simultaneously, without crippling either, is terrifyingly difficult.

Re: Story: “It would be career limiting..."

#320

Post by P5fRxh5kUvp2th »

bumby wrote: post #318
P5fRxh5kUvp2th wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The project went over 2 years and got cancelled. While the author moved on and had more success. Who exactly had the problem?

By the same logic, canceling the project to focus on others is a success story. If the expectation is that employees are more than cogs in a machine and are expected to solve real problems, both the author and company have problems. Washing your hands of a problem, especially when you’ve been empowered to create a solution, doesn’t solve anyone’s problems.

"that would be a career limiting move" apparently means empowered in your vernacular.
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