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Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

blogs.windows.com

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Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#311

Post by whywhywhywhy »

Sakos wrote: post #91
awill wrote: post #78

The difference here is that the M1 in the M1 mac mini is faster than Apple's phone SoC (the A16). The Qualcomm 8cx gen 3 (what a terrible name) in this machine is NOT faster than even Qualcomm's phone SoC (the 8 gen 1), let alone Apple's phone SoC. It's absurd to be selling a desktop PC that's weaker than a phone.

It's a chicken or the egg dilemma. Non-Apple ARM is too slow, so nobody wants Windows ARM, and nobody wants Windows ARM, so nobody is seriously working on consumer-targeted ARM. It will probably fail because Microsoft is generally bad at managing and marketing their hardware projects and coordinating with manufacturers and retail partners. Also, yeah, the pricing and performance is abysmal. But there is some sense to…

>I'm okay with Microsoft failing at projects like this. We don't need another Apple-like presence on the market.

Personally I’m not ok with being locked out of potential computing power by platform so I can’t get excited as MS struggles to keep up.

It’s either MS keeps up or the future ahead is dark.

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#312

Post by thesuperbigfrog »

scarface74 wrote: post #191
thesuperbigfrog wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> So what exactly are “consumers” clamoring for that are not currently being delivered? Until other choices are available, people tend to accept the default or keep on doing what was done in the past. There is a segment of consumers that would like choices beyond Apple and Google mobile operating systems: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/askjack/2019/jul/04/c... https://vivaldi.com/blog/technology/smartphones-…

You really don’t think you’re out of touch with what most users want? > https://www.theguardian.com/technology/askjack/2019/jul/04/c... Yes because using an operating system from the other 1 trillion dollar market cap company is going to be a better alternative. Meet the new boss… > https://vivaldi.com/blog/technology/smartphones-5-alternativ... And those alternatives are already out there and no one wants them in a…

>> You really don’t think you’re out of touch with what most users want?

I don't claim to speak for what most people want. I think having more options than iOS and Android could help promote more consumer-friendly choices.

>> Yes because using an operating system from the other 1 trillion dollar market cap company is going to be a better alternative. Meet the new boss...

It would be another choice. Yes, they have similar incentives, but more choices help to drive innovation and keep all players competitive.

>> And you are in the modernity and so much so that it wouldn’t be a profitable business. Do you think Microsoft is going to give you that?

No. Microsoft is a better position than many to be a third choice in smartphone platforms, but they have shown poor initiative in the mobile space. They could try again or it could be some other organization with sufficient know-how and daring. (Something disruptive like Tesla or Starlink perhaps?)

>> Have the majority of users been clamoring for it?

"If I had asked my customers what they wanted they would have said a faster horse." --Henry Ford

"Some people say give the customers what they want, but that's not my approach. Our job is to figure out what they're going to want before they do." --Steve Jobs

>> Where are all of the “innovations” that the majority of people care about - or even enough to make a profitable business - on Android where you can sideload and have third party web browser engines?

Android is innovative because it is more open than iOS. Even more innovation is possible given the right circumstances.

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#313

Post by eric-hu »

MBCook wrote: post #301
pge wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what's the incentive for a chip manufacturer to put out a better ARM chip (eg comparable to the Apple M1)? I don't know that world well, so my best guess is that the margins go to the OS manufacturers, so unless you have guaranteed commitment from MSFT for a given volume, and some sharing of the margin, it's too risky to invest in the R&D to make a better ARM chip. The market for x86 chips is large and known, so for…

> what's the incentive for a chip manufacturer to put out a better ARM chip (eg comparable to the Apple M1)? Intel & AMD’s consumer and/or server market share. I can’t imagine going back to an Intel after an M1. The battery life is better. It’s dead silent. It doesn’t get warm. It’s like a totally different kind of object. I know PC people (those who want Windows) aren’t interested in an M1 Mac. That’s fine. But I se…

Proving your point, Amazon designed graviton, an ARM processor for their data centers.

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#314

Post by MBCook »

Joe_Boogz wrote: post #197

It appears the consensus is HN is hesitant about the Windows on ARM push. I really want this to succeed. If this gains traction then we should start seeing support for windows laptops on ARM. As a dev who prefers windows but has a m1 MacBook b/c of the battery life I really hope this works out.

I’m out of the Windows ecosystem, except one machine at work.

I’d love Windows on ARM to work. I love my M1 and would like something comparable.

But Apple had the M1 and the ARM PCs seem to be based on iPhone 7 level chips (perceptually).

“You can have Intel or ARM. No one buys ARM so there is little software. Windows was ruined on ARM for a long time. Your ARM laptop will be way slower, but it will be cheap because the only ones you can buy are ultra-low spec with terrible components like eMMC storage.”

There is absolutely no compelling reason to buy one for any reason and they’re not fixing it.

The first MacBook Air was a horrible computer in many ways, but it really excelled in one that mattered to people.

These don’t have that one thing that matters. They’re just ‘meh’ computers that don’t run much. MS can’t fix it (without their own chip) and Qualcomm seemingly wont either.

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#315

Post by doublerebel »

Joe_Boogz wrote: post #243
detaro wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are Windows ARM laptops already, and their existence does a lot to justify that hesitancy.

Previous laptops and current surface devices do support ARM, but IMO nothing MSFT has put out has been serious. (Looking at you Surface Pro X). This targeted solution correctly identifies the main problem with Windows on ARM. Lack of developer support. Outside of internal MSFT dev support no one has taken Windows/ARM support seriously. I hope these dev kits represent a wider market push that ultimately leads to bette…

The new Surface Pro 7 ARM looks serious — it does seem to be the first serious ARM entry, though.

Lack of Windows ARM devices for dev really has hamstrung Hololens 2 development — it’s also Windows ARM and there are very few libraries with Windows ARM compatibility. I altered many libraries myself, despite that the documentation was nearly nonexistent.

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#316

Post by imwillofficial »

ramesh31 wrote: post #154
imwillofficial wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you mean? Im curious as to your thoughts

>How do you mean? Im curious as to your thoughts They've lost any sense of maintaining a cohesive design, or keeping things sleek and convenient. Performance has plateaued to a level of diminishing returns, so the only way they can get people to buy a new phone every year since iPhone 7 is to say "hey we put a bigger camera on it". Product ran free with that mandate, and now we have this abomination: https://hips.hea…

Great points

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#317

Post by MBCook »

throwntoday wrote: post #60
tmikaeld wrote: post #37

So, "everyone" is switching to ARM now?

Take a look at what Apple is doing today to find out what the industry is doing in a year or two.

Apple seems to be a lot more than 2 years ahead.

The M1 was November 2020. That’s two years ago, give or take a few weeks.

There is nothing close to the M1 available for a Windows ARM computer. There is nothing close from Intel/AMD if you just want an ultra-low power chip with very good performance.

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#318

Post by scarface74 »

thesuperbigfrog wrote: post #312
scarface74 wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You really don’t think you’re out of touch with what most users want? > https://www.theguardian.com/technology/askjack/2019/jul/04/c... Yes because using an operating system from the other 1 trillion dollar market cap company is going to be a better alternative. Meet the new boss… > https://vivaldi.com/blog/technology/smartphones-5-alternativ... And those alternatives are already out there and no one wants them in a…

>> You really don’t think you’re out of touch with what most users want? I don't claim to speak for what most people want. I think having more options than iOS and Android could help promote more consumer-friendly choices. >> Yes because using an operating system from the other 1 trillion dollar market cap company is going to be a better alternative. Meet the new boss... It would be another choice. Yes, they have sim…

> I don't claim to speak for what most people want. I think having more options than iOS and Android could help promote more consumer-friendly choices.

Using Linux on the phone with the lack of integration, the poor interface etc is the opposite of “consumer friendly”.

Normal consumers are not asking for the ability to “program their phone and run media servers”.

> Android is innovative because it is more open than iOS. Even more innovation is possible given the right circumstances

“Open” is not an “innovation”.

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#319

Post by MBCook »

dtx1 wrote: post #90

And here's the difference between Microsoft and Apple: When Apple switches to ARM, people believe them. When Microsoft switches to arm, people ignore them. Why? Because Microsoft only ever half-asses such changes (see the terrible SOC in this).

Well when the M1 came out it was dramatically better than everything else available to Mac users outside some small use-cases (like Mac Pro + multi-GPU).

People would have mostly wanted it anyway.

That doesn’t seem to be the case with this hardware.

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#320

Post by GeekyBear »

tokinonagare wrote: post #304
GeekyBear wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point of this machine is to give Developers a test bed for apps they port to ARM Windows. However, given that it took Microsoft more than a decade to decide to port their own Visual Studio to ARM Windows, I'm not sure why they think third parties are chomping at the bit. If Microsoft wants to copy Apple, they need to copy the decision to immediately port all their first party software.

> the point of this machine is to give Developers At 700€ price tag what a gift! It's 3-400€ too expensive for a very dispensable toy, especially given that the managed stack (.net) of Microsoft development tools can be tested on Raspberry Pi or M1, which are both very popular with developers.

Yes, I've mentioned elsewhere that they really should have gone all in on copying Apple and not only make the Dev kit cheaper, but issue a credit on future hardware purchases if the Dev returns the Dev kit when they get done porting their software.

It's not like you want to keep something this underwhelming forever at that price point.

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