In case you haven't seen it, some new evidence surfaced yesterday: https://youtu.be/jfPzUgzrOcQ
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Dear Chess World
311–320 of 1001 posts
Re: Dear Chess World
#312Earlier quoted context omitted.
>at least about the moves played You missed a large part. Some of his moves were "somewhat suspect". However, he was interviewed after the game with Magnus and he really could not explain why he was making the moves he made. Even the interviewers were almost laughing as he gave his "analysis" for his own moves. He played off his top engine moves as just getting lucky, while at the same time stating he didn't make oth…
Do you have a clip of the interview?
The gmhikaru youtube channel has several of the interviews with live commentary as it was happening.
Re: Dear Chess World
#313What i think should happen is, Hans should play in tournaments which have much more security, and play against Magnus. If he did cheat it should be really obvious because his performance will suddenly drop. If he didn’t than he will play the same, but now with the added security he won’t have to face unbacked accusations, and there is no excuse for Magnus to refuse to play with Hans like he has been doing now. Even i…
> If he did cheat it should be really obvious because his performance will suddenly drop I mean, Magnus is so much more better player than Hans that even if Hans didn't cheat he would probably be worse in rematch. But in all sports sometimes underdogs win. In couple yt videos i watched it was said that Magnus played bad game and that Hans already gained an advantage in opening. Hans said that he prepared opening play…
Of course he used an engine for the opening. Before the game, 100% certain he did.
Re: Dear Chess World
#314I am disappointed with Magnus. He is misusing the weight of his reputation even if cheating is a big deal in chess. The first mistake was still choosing to play when he had reservations once Hans was invited. The second mistake was quitting the tournament and messing up the standings once he lost. The third mistake was making an insinuation through a tweet. The fourth mistake was resigning in two moves his next game…
> I am disappointed with Magnus. He is misusing the weight of his reputation even if cheating is a big deal in chess. I think the unspoken truth but also the thing both chess.com and Magnus are hinting at is that Niemann has cheated a lot more than he lets on, perhaps his entire stream was built on cheating, who knows. But chess.com can't just start sharing information like that, and they are walking a fine line just…
daniel rensch from chess.com said few days ago that Magnus has no special insider information. https://old.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/xj932e/daniel_king_i...
> So again:
>- MAGNUS has NOT seen chesscom cheat detection algorithms
>- MAGNUS was NOT given or told a list of “cheaters”
>- and he is and has completely acted 100% on his own knowledge (not sure where he got it!) and desires to this time
>I will also address a comment made to this post about Ben’s (Perp Chess) podcast and say that, yes, some top players (not Magnus!) have been invited at times, under NDA, to see what we do… and by extension, they also saw some reports of confessed cheaters (there were many more cheaters - but we only share those who confessed in writing, and only privately under the NDA). Magnus and the team from C24 are not on that list.
Re: Dear Chess World
#315Why are known cheaters even allowed to participate in top level tournaments? It’s insulting to all the other chess players. Magnus is setting the right example by refusing to play Niemann
Zero tolerance blacklisting of cheaters is probably the best way forward. If neither Niemann nor Carlsen recant, then I predict chess will fall into general disrepute like baseball or billiards. The way for the professional chess community to salvage this situation is with zero tolerance blacklisting of anybody caught cheating, even as a teenager.
> fall into general disrepute like baseball or billiards
Could you elaborate, especially on billiards?
I had heard a 99PI episode about baseball cheating, but thought it was more isolated incidents and not general disrepute.
I enjoy playing pool but know nothing about the professional scene or cheating.
Re: Dear Chess World
#316A key fact to understand in thinking about cheating in over the board chess: a strong player can defeat a much stronger opponent with just 1-3 hints per game indicating the strongest move. For example, most chess experts agree that a ~2600 rated player with 2-3 hints at key moments per game would be expected to beat a ~2800 rated player. Many people might assume that a cheater needs guidance every move, thereby requi…
> (or Niemann, if concrete evidence against him emerges)
This window seems closed though. Carlsen seems to have no evidence. Where else could the evidence come from? All we have is character attacks. Even if justified, they can't prove that he cheated.
All we know for sure is that Carlsen accused him of cheating with no evidence.
Re: Dear Chess World
#317Do they do any tests for substances? How about nootropics which are known to boost brainpower, are these banned just doping in athletics? Would nootropics be considered cheating??
Re: Dear Chess World
#318Earlier quoted context omitted.
200 points difference means a 25% chance to win, so I doubt just 1 hint is enough to bridge that gap consistently. Many high level games are won by grinding out a small advantage. I'll take a 2700 with 3 hints against a 2800 though.
The "200 points difference means 25% chance to win" breaks down at the highest levels. It works fine near the middle of the bell curve -- i.e. 800-2000 Elo -- but once you get to 2200 Elo you are talking about the >99th percentile. For example, I don't know of a single 2400 player who can score an average of 0.25 against 2600 players. Even at my own mediocre level of 1800, I definitely do not score 0.25 against 2000…
As an example of this, until the Niemann game Magnus had a 53-game win^H^H^Hunbeaten streak. Prior to this he had a 125-game unbeaten streak. Many (most?) of these games were played against competitors within 200 Elo. Many of these were played against the 10 next-best chess players in the world.
The back of the envelope percentage calculation absolutely does not apply at this level of chess. In reality if Niemann were to play Magnus in 100 games, he would be exceedingly lucky to win one game.
Re: Dear Chess World
#319Earlier quoted context omitted.
There were multiple examples of people from other online sports where former cheaters became world top players and important members of the community. It is immoral to close every redemption path to a former sinner.
Repeat offender, he's admitted to cheating at age 12 and once again at age 16. Let's not cast this into something melodramatic like a "path to redemption", it is just chess after all, and the right decision is probably for him to be perma-banned, otherwise you're just going to end up with more and more of these types of situations.
Homie, come on.
I stole stuff at 12 and at 16. I shouldn't walk into a walmart now at 30 and be searched when I leave.
Just relax.
Re: Dear Chess World
#320Hypothetically, using AlphaGo as your cheating engine could produce moves which are undetectable to originate from an engine.
Alphazero plays very differently than a human, and you can analyze if the player is playing the same moves as it, just as well as you can with another engine. Less importantly, modern stockfish also uses neural networks.