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Europe is in danger of rolling electricity shortages

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Re: Europe is in danger of rolling electricity shortages

#311

Post by [deleted] »

mtsr wrote: post #247
Sharlin wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Peoples' homes not getting electricity will be the last resort and unlikely as large industries will be asked first to stop producing and take the government money. Interesting. Here in Finland the plan is to target domestic use first if the push comes to shove, to keep the industry up and running.

One reason for the difference could be that heating in consumers homes is very much dependent on electricity (whether or not the actual heating is gas-powered notwithstanding), whereas in other countries there may be more woodfired heating, for example.

[deleted]

Re: Europe is in danger of rolling electricity shortages

#312

Post by MisterSandman »

Havoc wrote: post #59

Scary, especially in light of the coming winter. This does seem to be ignoring some positives though - German putting some nuclear shutdowns on hold and France is looking like they might get their fleet back on track by beginning 2023 after they sorted out their corrosion issues. UK just fasttracked fracking (sigh) and sizewell C nuclear plant seems to have gotten the go ahead. Quite unfortunate that the writeup is o…

Not saying this isn't bad, but as long as the blackouts are frequent but short, I feel like heating is probably the least of our worries? Heat stays in a room for a while and most heaters don't stay on all day anyway.

This is, at least, from my experience living in India (in a part where it does get cold). Heating was whatever since the blackouts Werner long, and since blackouts are normal, we had backup generators and UPSs for things like WiFi routers and elevators.

Re: Europe is in danger of rolling electricity shortages

#313

Post by newsclues »

Sharlin wrote: post #166
sschueller wrote: post #8

Here is what Switzerland is doing at the moment to prevent the worst case which would be rolling black outs. They are planning for the worst case so they don't get caught with their pants down. This includes: - Currently trying to fill as many reservoirs as possible - Securing gas in foreign reservoirs. - Plan for emergency gas plants that can be operational by January/February, the time Switzerland has the least ele…

> Peoples' homes not getting electricity will be the last resort and unlikely as large industries will be asked first to stop producing and take the government money. Interesting. Here in Finland the plan is to target domestic use first if the push comes to shove, to keep the industry up and running.

Does Switzerland border Russia or another country that may invade if industrial production shuts down?

Re: Europe is in danger of rolling electricity shortages

#314

Post by moonchrome »

Gwypaas wrote: post #277
moonchrome wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Now nuclear costs 3-5x more and is simply not relevant. Compared to what ? Energy prices have jumped 2-3x in some places so far, and it's not even winter yet. Comparing renewable prices as averages or whatever is fine if you like blackouts ?

Then it's even better to get 3-5x the effect per invested dollar.

Yes - amazing - the reason prices are spiking is because supply is unstable and unable to support demand - and will be even more unstable in winter. Great for people selling electricity from renewables (although EU is capping their profit for 'fairness') but sucks for consumers.

Re: Europe is in danger of rolling electricity shortages

#315

Post by kennend3 »

Gwypaas wrote: post #289
kennend3 wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the CORE of the energy debate.. People throw out whatever nonsense they like to support their position. "Nuclear costs 3-5x" and as you point out, compared to what? The cost of sitting around for 20 years debating this and not taking any action at all has lead to much worse problems - power shortages. These "anti-nuclear" types fail to apply logic to their debate. I asked how much power is produced by solar d…

Because no one proposes solar in the north European winter. It's all about the geographically decoupled off shore wind. For the cost see for example: https://www.lazard.com/perspective/levelized-cost-of-energy-...

I assume you find the "subsidized wind" prices attractive? Who pays the subsidies?

Re: Europe is in danger of rolling electricity shortages

#316

Post by belorn »

Gwypaas wrote: post #277
moonchrome wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Now nuclear costs 3-5x more and is simply not relevant. Compared to what ? Energy prices have jumped 2-3x in some places so far, and it's not even winter yet. Comparing renewable prices as averages or whatever is fine if you like blackouts ?

Then it's even better to get 3-5x the effect per invested dollar.

I can easily earn a huge profit by trade 3-5x energy at one point in time, to get 1x energy at an other.

As an example, in my zone, if someone provided 1x energy at 7pm, and I repaid that by providing 3x of that energy at 3am, I would still earn a profit of about 25%.

The price prognosis for tonight is even lower, so I could trade 1x for 6x and still make a nice profit from the price difference.

Re: Europe is in danger of rolling electricity shortages

#317

Post by toast0 »

derefr wrote: post #298
toast0 wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would make sense to have say your stage 1 heating that could keep your house livable but rather cold on essential, and your stage 2 heating which made things comfortable on the less available feed. I'd also put refrigerators and minimal lighting on essential. The alternative as presented was some sort of compliance program hoping people wouldn't just run everything off the 'essential' feed regardless of need, or r…

> It seems you agree that 'essential' loads have much more value to you and others, but you're not willing to pay the value? In a similar sense that I'm not willing to pay more for "essential" food than for luxury food; or in the same sense that it seems unfair to have to pay for life-saving medical treatments. It is both unethical and pointless to exploit inelastic demand — the whole meaning of the word "inelastic"…

The point is not to exploit inelastic demand, but to separate inelastic demand from elastic demand when there isn't enough supply to fit both needs.

With food, it's possible to manage supply through stockpiling. With electricity, storage is tricky, so when there's a change to supply, demand has to be changed to match. You can do that with blackouts or economics. Many large customers have contracts where they pay a lower rate in exchange for disconnecting their load when needed to reduce demand. Anything essential would be on another meter that has a higher rate.

Why is it a problem to apply the same principle to residential connections?

Of course, in my area, most of my utility outages are a result of interrupted lines and not supply issues, both essential and non-essential would be equally disrupted. And, it's not feasible to switch a significant number of residences to a two-meter system in any reasonable amount of time, so this is firmly in the thought expirement category.

Re: Europe is in danger of rolling electricity shortages

#318

Post by lostlogin »

thrown_22 wrote: post #257
lostlogin wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Petrol prices rising are part of this crisis too. Most EVs are charged over night, when grid usage is low. Doesn’t that maximise the use of a strained system?

Right, so we just need to burn natural gas to meet that new demand. We can get that from ... oh.

For peak load, yes, but base load has a lot of nuclear.

Re: Europe is in danger of rolling electricity shortages

#319

Post by thoughtstheseus »

_ph_ wrote: post #308
thoughtstheseus wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mostly Germany. France has a diversified national energy strategy of nuclear and gas from many areas.

And yet it was Germany which through this summer increased the power generation and exports to replace the missing French nuclear power in the European grid and keep it stable.

Europe is saving its non-gas power generation for when they lose gas access.. That seems like an ok approach

Re: Europe is in danger of rolling electricity shortages

#320

Post by sschueller »

trebligdivad wrote: post #48
sschueller wrote: post #8

Here is what Switzerland is doing at the moment to prevent the worst case which would be rolling black outs. They are planning for the worst case so they don't get caught with their pants down. This includes: - Currently trying to fill as many reservoirs as possible - Securing gas in foreign reservoirs. - Plan for emergency gas plants that can be operational by January/February, the time Switzerland has the least ele…

The 'Securing gas in foreign reservoirs' is going to get messy for everyone, all the countries are doing this, but when everyone is short of it (if there's a very cold winter with low wind) - what's going to happen? Some of those 'secure gas' isn't going to deliver.

The issue here is that Switzerland does not have any large gas storage in its borders and has for a while been paying other countries for storage. They need to make sure that gas still belongs to Switzerland when it comes down to the wire.
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