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Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

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Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#311

Post by OkayPhysicist »

Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #191
tibbar wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are two lines of evidence: first regarding his cheating online, which is easier to do and easier to check. Chess.com banned Hans and put out a statement saying that Hans cheated more often and more seriously than he claimed. [1] The second line of inquiry is statistical analyses of Hans's over-the-board games. See my original comment for one such analysis, but he really has been playing at an absurd level in so…

What a person did at 16 years old is hardly relevant now, and it is definitely immoral to keep bringing it up without new evidence. How long would it take for people like you to stop bringing up 'he has a history of cheating'? 10 years? 20 years? 30 years? 50 years? He had played at a way more serious events, and still the only 'evidence' of cheating is his relatively good performance. Until someone comes up with an…

> What a person did at 16 years old is hardly relevant now

That argument works better when someone's 25 than when they're 19. This isn't the distant past, this is 3 years ago. That's definitely recent enough to be a black mark on his reputation. On the other side, the main person who's suspicious of them isn't some internet random. It's the world greatest chess player, which should is decidedly a mark in one's favor reputation-wise.

This is the very basis of how reputation works. You slowly establish reputation by having a track record of positive behavior, you rapidly tarnish reputation by having a track record of negative behavior, and when you are making judgements based on limited information about the activity at hand, you trust the more trustworthy.

Think of how much good will Microsoft has had to build in the last 10 years to try and make up for the 20 before that. Think of the fable of the boy who cried wolf. Trusting those who have earned it and distrusting those who have wronged before is basic society 101.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#312

Post by JetSetIlly »

Loughla wrote: post #261
Beltalowda wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He's admitted to cheating in the past. From what I can find: "he did admit that he had cheated in the past – first as a 12-year-old when a friend gave him some help in an online tournament and then as a 16-year-old playing unrated games while he was streaming." A 12-year old cheating in a tournament! We cannot ever trust this man!

For context at high levels of play. Magnus Carlsen started playing at around age 5. Was in his first tournament at 8. Was winning and establishing a career in his teens. Was grand master in his early 20's. So, cheating at 12 and 16 could equate to cheating now. That's only 3 or 7 years ago. Hans is 19.

Thank-you for pointing this out. The defence that Niemann was "only a minor" when he engaged in his admitted cheating has always sat uncomfortably with me. As you say, Chess is game played at very high standards by children as well as adults. Cheating in that context is highly immoral in my view.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#313

Post by booi »

Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #218
handsclean wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn’t match with Carlsen’s past behavior (he’s been consistently graceful in defeat over many years), isn’t what Carlsen did (he refused to play again, he didn’t even directly accuse him of cheating let alone call for his expulsion or harass him), and there isn’t no evidence (just weak evidence). Just consider, for a moment, the possibility that the kid did cheat again. What could Carlsen have possibly done th…

> What could Carlsen have possibly done that you wouldn’t call a tantrum? What he did was the most polite, least confrontational, thing possible. He could (and should) have played a game in the best way he possibly can. If he'd lose again (which I doubt) we could have analyzed Niemann's performance and maybe arrive to some conclusions.

That'd be like asking Lance Armstrong to compete in the Tour de France again and when he wins, we'll analyze his performance and maybe arrive to some conclusions...

???

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#314

Post by JetSetIlly »

finikytou wrote: post #34
kareemsabri wrote: post #6

Kind of a basic question but how do you cheat at chess, especially "over the board" ?

at very high level you don't need a lot to turn the tables. a sign of when to act agressive/defensive could be enough. I can think of millions ways to give this sign.

Yes. This can't be overstated enough. Cheating doesn't require concealed computers or any sort of electronic communication at all.

People might scoff but honestly, chess players have worried about this sort of stuff for decades. The '78 world championship between Karpov and Korchnoi for example, is a lesson in this kind of cheating - I'm thinking of the yogurt controversy in particular.

I don't believe for a moment that Karpov or his team were cheating in '78 (at least not in that way) but the fact that they weren't is really the salient point - it is very difficult to ignore the idea that your opponent might be cheating once the possibility has been suggested.

That is to say, trust in your opponent is a very important element of competitive play.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#315

Post by Andrew_nenakhov »

booi wrote: post #313
Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What could Carlsen have possibly done that you wouldn’t call a tantrum? What he did was the most polite, least confrontational, thing possible. He could (and should) have played a game in the best way he possibly can. If he'd lose again (which I doubt) we could have analyzed Niemann's performance and maybe arrive to some conclusions.

That'd be like asking Lance Armstrong to compete in the Tour de France again and when he wins, we'll analyze his performance and maybe arrive to some conclusions... ???

He entered a tournament and he doesn't have any evidence against Niemann. What he does is bullying.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#316

Post by Andrew_nenakhov »

OkayPhysicist wrote: post #311
Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a person did at 16 years old is hardly relevant now, and it is definitely immoral to keep bringing it up without new evidence. How long would it take for people like you to stop bringing up 'he has a history of cheating'? 10 years? 20 years? 30 years? 50 years? He had played at a way more serious events, and still the only 'evidence' of cheating is his relatively good performance. Until someone comes up with an…

> What a person did at 16 years old is hardly relevant now That argument works better when someone's 25 than when they're 19. This isn't the distant past, this is 3 years ago. That's definitely recent enough to be a black mark on his reputation. On the other side, the main person who's suspicious of them isn't some internet random. It's the world greatest chess player, which should is decidedly a mark in one's favor…

The "sin" he committed was playing no stakes online blitz, and you are projecting this 'mark' on his reputation to a professional over the board tournament with anticheating measures. The tournament organisers were very confident that no cheating took place at the event. To me it is a rather closed case.

Regarding Carlsen's behavior, so far it looks like he has grown a very big ego. Not interested in a second championship match with Nepo, throwing tantrums against an up and coming player who defeated him. Maybe he's feeling he is losing his edge against a new generation of players, and doesn't like it.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#317

Post by bitcharmer »

radiator wrote: post #220
tibbar wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a strong point in Hans's favor, and Regan is very reputable, but he's also going against the Chess.com team (and Hans himself!) in claiming that he finds no evidence of Hans cheating *online* either.

On the contrary, I don't find it significant at all. I had not even heard of Dr. Regan. He seems to have achieved the IM Title decades ago, today he is probably simply a weak player. The best expert on opining whether Niemann has been cheating or not is the player who understands the game of chess more deeply than anyone else. He understands it from the human point of view (for example: which variations can a player…

> He seems to have achieved the IM Title decades ago, today he is probably simply a weak player.

Wow.

Regan has been an active and respected member of scientific community, a lecturer and book author for a long time. If anything that adds and not takes away from his credibility. He's also the most prominent expert on cheating detection that FIDE has ever worked with and he's an authority on the matter.

Oh, and he's rated at around 2400 ELO. But I guess it's very easy to just slander him like that. Go back to reddit.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#318

Post by Beltalowda »

Loughla wrote: post #261
Beltalowda wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He's admitted to cheating in the past. From what I can find: "he did admit that he had cheated in the past – first as a 12-year-old when a friend gave him some help in an online tournament and then as a 16-year-old playing unrated games while he was streaming." A 12-year old cheating in a tournament! We cannot ever trust this man!

For context at high levels of play. Magnus Carlsen started playing at around age 5. Was in his first tournament at 8. Was winning and establishing a career in his teens. Was grand master in his early 20's. So, cheating at 12 and 16 could equate to cheating now. That's only 3 or 7 years ago. Hans is 19.

That doesn't change that a 12-year old is still a 12-year old though, and that a mere "7 years" (12 to 19) is a huge difference in terms of personal development. A 12-year olds brain is still developing.

The cheating when he was 16 was unrated, so that's less severe, but the same argument applies here really; how many 100% responsible 16 year olds do you know?

Should there be some consequences? Maybe? But people further upthread here are argueing for life-time bans, which seem ridiculously draconic for the actions of a teenager who can't buy alcohol or cigarettes, is below the age of consent for sexual activities, etc. in in many jurisdictions.

In my early teens I would shoplift for the fun of it and did some other things I'm not especially proud of today. That's been 30 years ago and I haven't stolen anything in just as many years (since I was 14 or 15).

I'm very uncomfortable writing off an entire person over actions they did as a teenager.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#319

Post by Beltalowda »

JetSetIlly wrote: post #312
Loughla wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For context at high levels of play. Magnus Carlsen started playing at around age 5. Was in his first tournament at 8. Was winning and establishing a career in his teens. Was grand master in his early 20's. So, cheating at 12 and 16 could equate to cheating now. That's only 3 or 7 years ago. Hans is 19.

Thank-you for pointing this out. The defence that Niemann was "only a minor" when he engaged in his admitted cheating has always sat uncomfortably with me. As you say, Chess is game played at very high standards by children as well as adults. Cheating in that context is highly immoral in my view.

I never said it's not immoral, but we're also talking about what are essentially children, which does not make it permissible, but I don't like judging adults (and 19 is only barely adult) over whatever they did as children/teens. There wouldn't be enough stones to cast if we started doing that.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#320

Post by Beltalowda »

LegitShady wrote: post #304
Beltalowda wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He's admitted to cheating in the past. From what I can find: "he did admit that he had cheated in the past – first as a 12-year-old when a friend gave him some help in an online tournament and then as a 16-year-old playing unrated games while he was streaming." A 12-year old cheating in a tournament! We cannot ever trust this man!

chess.com disagrees, and says the Niemann's cheating is greater in both the amount and seriousness of cheating that has occured. https://twitter.com/chesscom/status/1568010971616100352 >"Dear Chess Community, >The last few days have been tumultuous for many in the chess community. At this time we have reached out to Hans Niemann to explain our decision to privately remove him from chess.com and our events. We have sh…

I can't really determine who is right on that; my response was intended just for "he's admitted to cheating in the past." If the chess.com allegations turn out to be true then it would of course be a different matter entirely.
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