Housing is at the root of many of the rich world’s problems (2020) • Hacker News Board

Re: Housing is at the root of many of the rich world’s problems (2020)

#311

Post by axg11 » Wed, Aug 17, 2022, 5:19 PM UTC

datacruncher01 wrote: post #154

axg11 wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When was housing not an investment? Throughout history, people have always wanted to drive up the value of their land and properties. There are still plenty of places in the US/Canada/UK where housing is cheap. The problem is that nobody wants to live in those areas.

It's true but the reason people are moving to cities are jobs. Rural locations do not have the job market to support the costs to live there. It's a lower cost, but a much, much lower income outlook as well. If you have the money to outright buy a rural property and build a house there, it's not a bad place to live. But you don't want to have to depend on the limited job market with an expensive mortgage and limited…

Remote work is commonplace now. Perhaps in the next few years we’ll test the theory that jobs and house prices are linked. It’s now possible (for tech workers at least) to work from almost anywhere for decent wages.

My hunch is that the housing crisis is simple supply and demand. People want to live in cities because of the better access to entertainment, amenities, and services. There aren’t enough houses to fill that demand. There’s no great city on earth that has a glut of housing. If there were, people would flock to that city to fill the housing. I think that’s the very nature of a city. In some sense, the more people that want to live in a city, the higher the quality of the city. That’s also directly correlated with housing cost, sadly.

Re: Housing is at the root of many of the rich world’s problems (2020)

#312

Post by epicureanideal » Wed, Aug 17, 2022, 5:19 PM UTC

pdonis wrote: post #302

dont__panic wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Many people do not want to own a home I hate to go all "citation needed" on you, but I'm not sure this is true. Do I want to pay for upkeep of a property? Probably not. But since renting is basically equivalent to burning money in our economy, any responsible renter will eventually feel a pull towards ownership if only to stop the bleeding. I think we need a society where renting isn't so expensive AND owning a pro…

> I hate to go all "citation needed" on you, but I'm not sure this is true. Given the number of people that rent in large cities all over the world for their entire lives, I don't know why you would find my claim doubtful. Many people seem to want to live in large, densely populated areas, and for most people that is always going to mean renting. > Much like freedom of car-free movement, housing ought to be a fundame…

> Given the number of people that rent in large cities all over the world for their entire lives, I don't know why you would find my claim doubtful.

How many could afford to buy though?

Re: Housing is at the root of many of the rich world’s problems (2020)

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Post by 0x138d5 » Wed, Aug 17, 2022, 5:21 PM UTC

2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #234

idkyall wrote: post #122

Housing in the US has gotten to where it is due to horrible laws effectively allowing total tax avoidance for landlords. Take some investment property. You buy it at some basis price, let's say 500k. You rent it out for 15k a year. Each year you can offset your rental income against deprecation of the property and property taxes - meaning, you pay no income tax on your rental income. ~30 years later, you've deprecate…

> unless your estate is over 12 million dollars(and double that for a married couple), you pay no estate taxes. Why aren't estates just taxed as income to the entity who it goes to? If my father croaks and leaves me $1m it should count as an additional $1m of income to me that year.

That would be awesome for gentrification. Jack up the property prices and when the owners pass, their heirs will be forced to sell.

Re: Housing is at the root of many of the rich world’s problems (2020)

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Post by finiteseries » Wed, Aug 17, 2022, 5:21 PM UTC

tristor wrote: post #300

finiteseries wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- The last thousand some years (in Europe) - Widespread (in Europe) - Half of recorded (European) history An exclusively European phenomenon, the bulk of which came and went while it was a backwater region with limited effect on the rest of the world.

> An exclusively European phenomenon, the bulk of which came and went while it was a backwater region with limited effect on the rest of the world. Weird that it had limited effect on the rest of the world, since basically history from now back to about the 15th century represents a European hegemony, now a US hegemony that extends European Western philosophy to the world. Seems that "limited effect" is pretty big. S…

The bulk of feudalism took place between the 5th and 12th centuries, ~400 years before 1491.

Re: Housing is at the root of many of the rich world’s problems (2020)

#315

Post by randomdata » Wed, Aug 17, 2022, 5:22 PM UTC

newsclues wrote: post #235

bbarn wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So far the business community's response has been "no one wants to work." because they can't afford to pay salaries. Ultimately, people vote with their feet, or government intervenes on behalf of those who would lose money.

In Canada business and government says this stuff, to justify importing immigrants to work for low wages and often lower standards of living.

Importing immigrants in Canada requires that the employer provide suitable housing for the imported workers, so that brings us back to the earlier comment.

Re: Housing is at the root of many of the rich world’s problems (2020)

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Post by namdnay » Wed, Aug 17, 2022, 5:22 PM UTC

ROTMetro wrote: post #283

namdnay wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what universe does paying tax on what you inherit equate to communism?

When you effectively take someone's home for government benefit. People think that when they buy property they own it. You're model is more the China version. You don't own property, you only lease it from the government. Hence, your model looks more like the communist model than the traditional Western one.

Inheritance tax is paid by the inheritor, not the deceased. It’s not a property tax, it’s an income tax.

If you’re lucky enough to receive a house as an inheritance, you pay tax on that, like every other income.

Re: Housing is at the root of many of the rich world’s problems (2020)

#317

Post by groby_b » Wed, Aug 17, 2022, 5:22 PM UTC

l33t2328 wrote: post #224

seiferteric wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you had to pay the tax you could probably just finance it anyway instead of paying it all at once so it would be just like having a new (small) mortgage.

That’s what every parent hopes to leave their kids with: an obligation

I mean, we can solve that problem by a 100% inheritance tax so they don't leave an obligation. No? Then maybe let's skip arguing in sound bites.

Personally, I think the answer here is a continued and ongoing land tax. Occupying land should come with an expectation you contribute to the common good, because you don't "own" land. It's a shared good, just like air and water, and you should pay for use.

Primary residences should indeed not be subject to an inheritance tax - if they are continued to be used as a primary residence. Providing an ongoing home for a family unit[1] is a societal good, we shouldn't punish it.

[1] Definition of family is a hairy problem for another, longer post.

Re: Housing is at the root of many of the rich world’s problems (2020)

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Post by muffinman26 » Wed, Aug 17, 2022, 5:24 PM UTC

dont__panic wrote: post #257

pdonis wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You only need one house to live in. Many people do not want to own a home, they would rather rent. Someone has to be the landlord for all those people, and to all those someones, the home is an investment. You can only get rid of homes as investments if you get rid of renting.

> Many people do not want to own a home I hate to go all "citation needed" on you, but I'm not sure this is true. Do I want to pay for upkeep of a property? Probably not. But since renting is basically equivalent to burning money in our economy, any responsible renter will eventually feel a pull towards ownership if only to stop the bleeding. I think we need a society where renting isn't so expensive AND owning a pro…

If by "many" GP meant "a small but noticeable percentage of the population", I think the claim is reasonable. Buying a home is a process. In additional to the standard search and short personal inspection you'd do for a rental, there's an official inspection, securing a loan, etc. It consumes a significant amount of time for a month.

For someone moving every 6-12 months, spending a month or even two per year on buying properties and ensuring the previous owners aren't hiding issues isn't worth it. If a landlord hides something this type of tenant will only have to deal with it for a year at most, but if a seller hid something they would lose a lot of money on the move.

Moving every 6-12 months isn't the default, but it's relatively common for college students and recent graduates who haven't established roots yet. Next year it's a new city for a different job or a different school. For example, for many fields in the US going to the same university for grad and undergrad is highly discouraged.

(Not disagreeing with any of your other points.)

Re: Housing is at the root of many of the rich world’s problems (2020)

#319

Post by tristor » Wed, Aug 17, 2022, 5:24 PM UTC

finiteseries wrote: post #314

tristor wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> An exclusively European phenomenon, the bulk of which came and went while it was a backwater region with limited effect on the rest of the world. Weird that it had limited effect on the rest of the world, since basically history from now back to about the 15th century represents a European hegemony, now a US hegemony that extends European Western philosophy to the world. Seems that "limited effect" is pretty big. S…

The bulk of feudalism took place between the 5th and 12th centuries, ~400 years before 1491.

Sure, and the legacy of feudalism is a core part of what informs Western philosophy and political structure since then.

Re: Housing is at the root of many of the rich world’s problems (2020)

#320

Post by valarauko » Wed, Aug 17, 2022, 5:25 PM UTC

alistairSH wrote: post #294

valarauko wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious as to what the solution in this case is then. If election days were holidays, wouldn't the same people still have the same issues with employers? Do shift workers not work on holidays?

This is why I suggested nationwide mail-in voting as a solution. A national holiday might help some workers, but not all. Gas stations still need staffed, etc.

Realistically, how would that work for these same group of people? They'd have to know well in advance that they would need postal ballots and complete and return them in advance of election day. Would shift workers working multiple jobs be best served by mail-in voting? tbf I'm not sure if there is a better way, but it seems relying on mail-in ballots helps some people and alienates a different group of people.