Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case • Hacker News Board

Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#311

Post by simonh » Tue, Aug 09, 2022, 1:22 PM UTC

cyphar wrote: post #250

simonh wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>especially with broken voting systems that are not even remotely representative such as in the US, UK, and most of the world. There are many flavours of representative democracy. It depend what is being represented. In the British system that’s constituencies. In proportional systems, that’s political parties. Neither are particularly more or less inherently legitimate IMHO. Ultimately whether a democracy and its sy…

> There are many flavours of representative democracy. It depend what is being represented. In the British system that’s constituencies. In proportional systems, that’s political parties. Neither are particularly more or less inherently legitimate IMHO. I would consider 10% of a country voting for a party as first preference but less than 0.7% of parliament seats (by which I mean a single seat) being allocated to the…

That’s only unrepresentative if you privilege parties over constituencies. There’s an argument for that but it’s not a given. I detest party lists though, it’s a terrible idea to suborn elected representatives to a party bureaucracy. Elected representatives should be ultimately answerable to the electorate.

I don’t think it’s fair to phrase it that way, I’m terms of choice. Democracy doesn’t give individuals a choice in how they are governed, it grants them a vote. That’s not the same thing. Also I don’t think it’s reasonable to have the structure of political power up fir continuous change. There should be mechanisms fir change, sure, but in most cases that should be over fairly long time frames with plenty of brakes in the process.

The reason is that changing power structures is extremely dangerous. Once you fall into a peer structure that’s vulnerable to abuse by a clique or even worse an individual, you can easily get trapped in it permanently. In a constantly changing system up for frequent revision it seems like that would eventually be inevitable.

Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#312

Post by throwaway894345 » Tue, Aug 09, 2022, 1:27 PM UTC

cyphar wrote: post #250

simonh wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>especially with broken voting systems that are not even remotely representative such as in the US, UK, and most of the world. There are many flavours of representative democracy. It depend what is being represented. In the British system that’s constituencies. In proportional systems, that’s political parties. Neither are particularly more or less inherently legitimate IMHO. Ultimately whether a democracy and its sy…

> There are many flavours of representative democracy. It depend what is being represented. In the British system that’s constituencies. In proportional systems, that’s political parties. Neither are particularly more or less inherently legitimate IMHO. I would consider 10% of a country voting for a party as first preference but less than 0.7% of parliament seats (by which I mean a single seat) being allocated to the…

> I would consider 10% of a country voting for a party as first preference but less than 0.7% of parliament seats (by which I mean a single seat) being allocated to them (as was the case in Australia until the last election where it's still around 2% representation) to be unrepresentative by any reasonable definition of the word.

Is this is a consistent outcome or an anomaly?

Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#313

Post by Overtonwindow » Tue, Aug 09, 2022, 1:30 PM UTC

nwiswell wrote: post #24

Overtonwindow wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn’t have to be the entire jury, one juror can hang everything.

That isn't the same thing. Nullification is when the ENTIRE jury votes not guilty, producing an acquittal and double jeopardy protection for the accused.

I disagree. Jury nullification sounds plural, but a single juror can nullify everything; I’m voting this way because I think the law is wrong.

That decision has nullified the process, and could lead to a hung jury. Or that one person could convince everyone else. I think you might be confusing the hole with the part, and not grasping the power of a single juror.

Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#314

Post by motogpjimbo » Tue, Aug 09, 2022, 1:30 PM UTC

watwut wrote: post #170

codefreeordie wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A jury is the last line of defense. The state can not use it's power to punish someone unless they can find 12 members of the community who are willing to allow the punishment. It is supposed to be the last, final defense against the perversion of the justice system into political prosecution. The state can make whatever laws it wants, but it can't enforce them without the will of (some of) the people. Probably worke…

Practically it can, because jury trial is expensive, less predictable and carries much longer sentence then plea bargain. So, 94% or so of cases end without trial. The state says "take 3 years in plea bargain or risk 15 years and huge debt in jury trial".

If you're going to jail for 15 years, isn't running up a debt with your lawyers the least of your concerns?

Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#315

Post by CrazyPyroLinux » Tue, Aug 09, 2022, 1:31 PM UTC

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #264

alistairSH wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But society wants selective enforcement. Speeding laws are good when the stop that guy from endangering my kids. Or when they generate revenue from tourists. Those same laws are awful when they inconvenience me.

I think one of our greatest failures as a species is that we have yet to architect a society in which these sorts of double standards of personal belief have sufficient consequences to prevent people from engaging in them with the fervor and frequency that they do.

I think one of our greatest failures as a species is the hubris of _thinking_ that we can "architect a society"

Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#316

Post by post_break » Tue, Aug 09, 2022, 1:42 PM UTC

nostromo wrote: post #145

thayne wrote: post #139

Someone told me that knowing what jury nullification is can get you out of jury duty, because if the attorneys find out you know what it is during the jury selection process, they won't want you on the jury. I don't know if that's true though.

Don’t try to get out of jury duty. Someone’s life is on the line. Suck it up and do your civic duty.

The court for me is 40 minutes away. They make you park in a parking lot down town that isn't safe and you have to walk or take some shuttle to the courthouse. Can't take my gun with me for obvious reasons. Spend my gas getting there. Then if the parking lot gets full I have to pay for parking as well. All for me to be sent home because I know what jury nullification is, don't believe prostitution is a crime, or minor drug charges. But yeah, tell me more to suck it up.

Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#317

Post by dwringer » Tue, Aug 09, 2022, 1:42 PM UTC

BowBun wrote: post #304

alistairSH wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But society wants selective enforcement. Speeding laws are good when the stop that guy from endangering my kids. Or when they generate revenue from tourists. Those same laws are awful when they inconvenience me.

Maybe I'm just being contrarian to your comment, but I've always thought the US and other countries are silly for not automating basic traffic enforcement. Red light cameras should effectively catch 95%+ of people who blow through them. Speeding cameras (that are actually on, looking at you NYC) that are super visible are a known deterrent to speeding in Europe. Even parking - in some modern garages they have sensors…

A lot of places in the US have tried out automated speed traps and red light cameras. Some still use them AFAIK.

But what's common is that infractions are so widespread that there's a massive backlash and the programs get cancelled. There was an automatic speed trap on the interstate just south of Pittsburgh a few months ago, set up along side some temporary construction with reduced speed limits. A few weeks later there was a headline that it had generated so many tens of thousands of tickets that they were considering it an error and throwing out the tickets.

Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#318

Post by wildmanx » Tue, Aug 09, 2022, 1:43 PM UTC

ben_w wrote: post #256

konschubert wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about we start with not making stuff illegal that we don't want to enforce?

Necessary but not sufficient. Weed is a category B drug in the UK: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabis_in_the_United_Kingdom This means "with penalties for unlicenced dealing, unlicenced production and unlicenced trafficking of up to 14 years in prison, an unlimited fine, or both. The maximum penalty for possession of cannabis is five years in prison and an unlimited fine." The police absolutely try to enforce thi…

> If this law, all by itself, was perfectly enforced, the UK would bankrupt itself just on the extra spending in the prison system.

That conclusion ignores the interdependence of those effects. If people knew that it's going to be perfectly enforced, then almost nobody would do it anymore.

(Not that I'm a proponent of this particular law; just pointing out a flaw in your argument. Somebody wrong on the internet -- gotta reply!)

Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#319

Post by freeopinion » Tue, Aug 09, 2022, 1:45 PM UTC

Jury nullification is just one manifestation of good-ol'-boy-ism.

Good-ol'-boy-ism is a good thing when it let's the sheriff of Mayberry teach a kid a lesson without making him a felon and ruining his future.

Good-ol'-boyism is a horrible thing when it let's the sheriff of Mayberry teach a kid a lesson, making him a felon and ruining his future.

I have personally benefited from the former. I don't know how to reconcile the latter when the only difference was the kid's last name, or skin color, or religion. Every good thing can be abused. Sometimes the scale of abuse calls for the abolition of the "good thing". Sometimes it is better to tolerate some abuse because of the scale of good that comes from the good thing.

For me, this train of thought always breaks down to reasoning that good-ol'-boy-ism is good when the ol'-boys are good and bad when the ol'-boys are bad. But that's obviously broken when 'good' or 'bad' is left to the decision of the ol'-boys. Historically, we just have constant war to decide who gets to be the ol'-boys this week.

Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#320

Post by ww-picard-do » Tue, Aug 09, 2022, 1:46 PM UTC

curiousgal wrote: post #243

mcv wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it perjury to lie in this case?

I don't understand what the big deal about perjury is. You have politicians lying under oath all the time and having 0 punishments despite the huge ramifications of those lies. Why should the "small time" liars be punished.

So, it is ok for people to lie in court because politicians do it?